What Is The Role Of Marketing Technology In Lead Generation?

Tessa Burg: Hello, and welcome to another episode of “Lead Generation” brought to you by Tenlo radio. I’m your host Tessa Burg. I wanted to start today’s episode with a quick but very exciting announcement.

Tessa Burg: Tenlo has been acquired by Mod Op. You can find them at modop.com, modop.com. They’re an award-winning full service, digital marketing and communications agency. Good news for all of our “Lead Generation” listeners, the podcast will continue.

Tessa Burg: The merger means that we’ll have the opportunity to hear from more experts in both the B2C and B2B areas of marketing and include and expand to content, PR, digital creative, video games, and start exploring new tech that’s going to emerge and affect all of our industries like IOT and blockchain, and continue our deep concentration on what it takes to generate leads and growth for your business.

Tessa Burg: We’re very excited. Keep listening. And now onto today’s episode. We have an awesome guest, she’s returning for a second time, Hana Jacover. Thank you for joining us.

Hana Jacover: Hello, it’s good to be back. I can’t stay away.

Tessa Burg: Yeah, I know the first conversation was so good and this one we’re gonna dive right into the meat of what this podcast is all about, which is generating leads. So the specific topic that we’re looking at is, what is the role of tech? And maybe this is a bit selfish, since I’m the CTO here at Tenlo and sometimes I get a little tech-heavy, a little tech excited.

Tessa Burg: So I’m really excited to get your perspective on the breadth of lead generation. What’s the definition of that, what’s it mean? And how does tech play the most effective role in helping people and businesses get results? So first question for people, and since this is such a different subject in our first interview, tell us a little bit about your background and experience in the realm of lead generation.

Hana Jacover: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I have been in the realm of demand gen, lead gen. I usually use the term demand gen within B2B tech for the last 11 years, and really just kind of started as a sponge and was observing at an agency and then kind of started running our own internal marketing efforts and then expanded that into clients while all learning different types of strategies and systems. And so that’s kind of where I guess, like my start to becoming a very T-shaped marketer.

Hana Jacover: And then, yeah, so I’ve been building demand gen engines for a variety of different organizations for the last 10 years and helping with a lot of different things that all really come back to technology. And I sort of like to view it as these pillars of people, process and tech.

Hana Jacover: So that’s where I play is I think the people pillar is the most important. Cheryl and I have talked about just kind of my move of coaching and like, why I’m so passionate about that. However, processes and technology, those are core pillars as well. And that’s really where I like to play. So yeah, just kind of combining those pillars to help our clients, to help clients to sort of find the best way forward, the least friction and get them closer to revenue.

Tessa Burg: So you mentioned that you like to refer to it as demand gen. Can you tell us, is there a difference between lead gen, demand gen and then a new term that we’re hearing a lot from clients is growth marketing and maybe it’s not, but give us your definition of those three different spaces.

Hana Jacover: Yeah, definitely. It’s a good question. And it’s like, I wish we had like a ven diagram, right. Because they all have these overlapping qualities. And so I think that’s why people always have this argument of like, it’s the same thing. And I do very much agree with that, it is a a type. It’s the same thing if you’re looking through a lens, right. But if you zoom out a little bit, then you start to see some of those differences.

Hana Jacover: And then on top of that, I think it’s important that we understand where you could look at it as like an umbrella or like a tree trunk, right. Like what are the core pieces? Like demand generation is an umbrella or a tree trunk. And there are many different other things that stem from that, the branches branch out from that.

Hana Jacover: So like from my opinion, demand generation is, and it is kind of self-explanatory, right. It is the act of generating not only generating, identifying what kind of demand you need to generate, starting to then employ tactics, that strategies and tactics that will then allow you to generate that demand. And then being able to have a strategy in place that then allows you to operationalize capturing that demand as well.

Hana Jacover: So there’s a lot of things that can go into that, which is why I like to see or view demand generation as an umbrella or the trunk of a tree. Or I think I’ve also used the analogy of like a lightning strike. It literally powers the funnel in all ways.

Hana Jacover: And so lead generation also self-explanatory, right. We are employing strategies and tactics with an end result of generating leads. So it’s a little bit more tactical, right. It’s not like a 30,000 foot view goal of increasing revenue, increasing conversion rates, decreasing velocity. Like we don’t necessarily tie those KPIs to lead generation. It’s really typically kind of like that number of net new leads. And then you might have some metrics that flow out of that. But I think for the most part, when we’re thinking about lead generation, it’s really the practice of generating leads. And again, you can do many different things to accomplish that. And then growth marketing.

Hana Jacover: Growth marketing, it is kind of a newer term, which is interesting ’cause this is the term that a lot of startups, you see a lot of startups use growth marketing. We’re hiring a growth marketer.

Hana Jacover: From my perspective when you make this higher, you really do need to think about that ven diagram of like, but we’re really just doing marketing. It’s really all still marketing FYI. And it’s just the approach. It’s just the approach. And I think that, I don’t know, I feel weird about growth marketing sometimes because I do think demand generation, it’s under that umbrella. You can be a growth marketer within demand generation. You can be doing growth marketing and demand generation. You can be doing all three of these things at the exact same time, but I think it’s just kind of the different categories and your approach.

Hana Jacover: I think growth marketing is an approach almost because you’re really thinking about the way that you’re approaching marketing in a very different way. You’re thinking about it in sort of bite-size pieces of we’re gonna try something, we’re gonna make some hypotheses and then we’re gonna test it. And so you have all these different experiments and you’re also thinking very much in line with reducing churn, reducing customer acquisition cost. Thinking about those key metrics that can be tweaked a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit here, a little bit there to then see if it adjusts or gets us closer to our end goal of revenue.

Hana Jacover: So growth marketing, you’re more like a scientist, I think in your approach to marketing versus demand generation. I think it’s a little bit more holistic, you’re thinking about bringing in some growth marketing tactics or styles, but you’re also thinking about all the other things as well.

Hana Jacover: Back to my point about all of this, you’re still doing marketing. I think that puts growth marketers in a box that they may not always wanna be in, especially thinking long-term for their careers. So I think it’s important that you own it for sure, but also then figure out ways to expand your role into how the B2B community perceives lead gen, and demand gen and ABM, all of those other things. So you don’t get stuck.

Tessa Burg: Mm-hmm, no, I agree. I think one thing I’ve noticed with growth marketing is people actually want someone who’s very good at CRM and marketing automation technology. And then they also want them to be very good at strategy. They’re like, we need you to know this inside and out, but as a tactician, then also be strategic and tell us how to stop losing customers and acquire new ones at a lower cost.

Hana Jacover: You’ve just described the pain point of all the marketers out there, is like be tactical but not too tactical, be strategic, but not too strategic, ’cause you have to make sure you have time to do all the tactical stuff. And then yeah, I mean, it is extremely frustrating. Sitting in a marketing role because of that exactly, and the balance. Learning the balance of being strategic and tactical. And then on top of that, learning the balance of delegating those tasks. And then what is your role and how are you then bubbling up that information to an executive level and distilling it to where it actually is making sense at the very top, if necessary.

Tessa Burg: Yes, I agree. So one of the other popular areas we hear and I don’t know where it falls, demand gen, lead gen or growth is ABM. So account-based marketing, which again, sometimes I thought that’s what we were doing when we were supporting sales teams as trying to target specific accounts, influence them and engage them to nurture and convert that lead. But what makes account based marketing special and where does it fall in that ven diagram?

Hana Jacover: Well, I might have a hot take on this because I think that it is again, just a component of marketing in general, specifically demand generation. But I think that you can be doing ABM through all of these things. You have to break it out because it’s a complex style of marketing. It’s a complex approach to marketing. So you do have to break it out because it does have so many various pieces that you really have to dedicate a lot of time, to a lot of money to, in order to do it the right way.

Hana Jacover: So that’s why I think we see it broken at out and called out specifically because it’s a big initiative. It really is. However, you’re still marketing. You’re still just doing marketing FYI, and yeah, I think that there’s a place for ABM within demand generation. I think there’s a place for ABM within growth marketing. However, you have to have the resource to be able to do all of those things.

Hana Jacover: So it’s really hard to sit in a demand general and say, we’re also gonna be doing, a hybrid demand gen ABM approach, or we’re gonna be doing a very strict split of ABM here, demand gen, traditional demand gen here.

Hana Jacover: So I think that it comes on to understanding the resources that go into a successful ABM program. And I think breaking out is important as well, because you do have to view the funnel differently. We’re thinking about accounts, we’re measuring accounts, not just people, but we’re still marketing to people, right.

Hana Jacover: So then you can’t lose that demand gen component of we’re still doing all of these things. We’re still marketing to people, but the account-based approach is that we’re doing it in a very specific way that to the point where we have a value proposition built out for maybe 10 to 20 companies and it’s that unique, and everything that we do has to be that customized. So you can see that it takes time and money in order to get there.

Tessa Burg: Yeah, I really love that description because I think recognizing that it’s accounts and not just customers is a different dynamic. Would you give us an example of, what are like the key components and you talked about making sure you have enough resources. What are those resource drivers or key components that make ABM successful or will help contribute to growth?

Hana Jacover: Yeah, yeah. And I think it goes back to the pillars of people, process, tech. So like within those pillars, what are the most important pieces?

Hana Jacover: So thinking about technology, I’ll start with the easy one, and a lot for a lot of people it’s not an easy one because there’s all this ABM tech out there. And it’s exciting to see that for the market is moving and like developing actual technologies that help us with this strategy. But it can be overwhelming. And a lot of people wanna jump in and buy a brand new piece of technology without doing any evaluation.

Hana Jacover: So I think when you’re doing an ABM readiness assessment, like evaluating your technology of, can your current tech stack handle this? Can your current tech stack actually operationalize a strategy where we are going to now be looking at reporting on accounts, sending extremely customized messages at scale, ’cause a lot of your typical market automation system, you need to go beyond that in order to really scale an ABM program. Otherwise it’s gonna take way too much time.

Hana Jacover: And then I think people is an important resource because you’re very much working in line with sales and maybe even product, maybe even customer success. Definitely need more support on your own team for this because it’s a big effort. And I think that this is where a lot of people fall short is that they think that they can do ABM, but then they don’t understand that when we scale it out a little bit more and we’re customizing everything, it takes too much time, especially from a sales perspective of taking that time away from them. I mean, it’s not really taking it away from them, but asking them to give more time to this effort when they’re not seeing an immediate result can be a really tricky conversation to have. And I think we need to position it. And one of my co-founders back at Mad Kudu would always say, “It’s really enterprise sales that we’re doing when we talk about ABM.”

Hana Jacover: So I think when we’re trying to communicate that to sales and how are we gonna work together on this ABM play, it needs to be through the lens of, let’s think of this as if you were doing an enterprise sales. That’s how we need to approach it. You’re not doing marketing, you’re assisting. Yes, but we’re really gonna dig in through the lens of this is an enterprise sales, we’re getting that customized. We’re spending that much time on it because these are the accounts that are going to bring us the most value to our business and to their business. So they deserve that time. I think we just have to approach it and message it internally in a different way.

Hana Jacover: And then a couple other resources I’ll mention, content is big. Content’s a huge one. We’re thinking about customizing content for many different accounts, which is what you should be doing if you and true ABM, you should have custom content, custom landing pages, custom emails, and going beyond just the name of the company, right. That’s not even true ABM. I’m talking do you have a specific value proposition? Have you done the research on that account to then tie in their specific pain points of X, Y, Z company? And that’s what should be included in the customization of these content pieces, which again, takes time and takes a lot of content in general.

Hana Jacover: And then I think to just process . Process having a strategy and a process to measure everything. Great, we’ve got our programs out the door, but now what? How are we measuring this? How is it flowing through, how are we going to know if there’s an MQA that bubbles up and being able to actually implement that. So people that can help develop that strategy and think through the connection between the pillars of technology, people and processes is also really critical. So I think it requires somebody that has that skillset and has done it before, where they can really zoom out and understand how things should flow through and how we should be thinking about KPIs.

Tessa Burg: I love that we started with looking at these three buckets and we just got very granular, deep down into what ABM is underneath the demand gen umbrella. But in all of the answers you gave, there’s this consistent pattern of, you have to know the process first. There’s no magic switch for any of these. You can’t switch on and it’s like, okay, we’re gonna start generating leads.

Tessa Burg: And I like that you focus on that, first, make sure you understand the purpose and the goals that you have for this strategy and then start mapping out, what are those resources you need. And the tech is almost like the easy part underneath. And then we will use this thing to operationalize the process and the resources that we have now aligned. And I think sometimes when there’s a lot of pressure, it’s hard to take the time to really think through that process and engage the right people.

Tessa Burg: So let’s say I’m put on my client hat, that I just need leads right now, like right now in this very minute, what can I do? What is the fastest way to start generating leads?

Hana Jacover: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it depends, like I really do think it depends on your business and who you’re talking to. So I would say know your customer well, know them really well. So you can easily answer that question because you know where they’re playing, you know what their pain points are. If you know those things you can get in front of them very quickly and that if you know those things well, what it allows you to do, is spend more time on being creative, spend more time on being creative in your approach. Because that if somebody is doing the same old outreach, the same old tactics of trying to get leads quickly, that’s not gonna work. And especially if you’re in the business of marketing to marketers or marketing to devs, we’re humans and we can kind of sniff that thing, sniff those or sniff that out. And so I think that, yes, it truly depends.

Hana Jacover: However, what I would say is, to look at currently what has worked or look at historically what has worked and what are your highest generating efforts? What has the highest conversion rates, what has the highest close rates just to kind of get a good picture of what you’ve done before and a little bit of an audit around, okay, these things didn’t work in the past. So that’s crossed off the list. You could use some process of elimination.

Hana Jacover: And then I would just say, be super creative. This industry is so ready for that, your boss, whether they wanna admit it or not is so ready for that. So just bring those ideas to the table because those are going to be the things that convert the most, is if you’re doing something differently that speaks to your audience, that’s what’s gonna convert, not necessarily the fastest, but the best.

Hana Jacover: I will say that I’ve seen a lot of solid improvements through the lens of content syndication and doing some third-party acquisition there. I would never just say, go out and buy a list, please don’t do that. But if you have valuable content and you are really, really specific about your targeting, and you’re getting in front of the people that truly do have that pain point.

Hana Jacover: There are vendors out there that have done a great job in connecting those dots and have grown their base organically. For example, they’re not, when you think of content education at first it’s like, eh, I don’t like buying leads sounds really shitty, but if you’re doing it in the way where it is actually you’re leaning into their organically grown based and you’re providing really good content, you’re talking to the right people. That is a way that you can generate some solid leads fairly quickly.

Hana Jacover: I would say though, there’s a big difference between generating the lead and the lead becoming an MQL, an SAL, an SQL, that takes time and there’s no silver bullet there. There just isn’t. You can turn on a content syndication program and generate leads in a couple weeks, but are all those leads gonna be sales-ready? Absolutely not.

Tessa Burg: Well, that’s disappointing.

Hana Jacover: I know we just live in a world where we want it now, we want it now. And like one thing I’ll tell you, I’ll give an example of something creative that our team did it Mad Kudu. And this was kind of like the brainchild of our co-founder as well. And we sort of helped him get it to a point where it was actually operationalizing and we could measure it. And we started weaving it into all of our other tactics and measurement. And we started using our chat bot for lead gen in a way that we hadn’t seen used before. So we were actually giving people the ability to test our products in the chatbot.

Hana Jacover: And so with that, we’d say, “Hey, do you wanna see how Mad Kudu works?” And they’d be like, yeah, show me. And so we’d get their email and just their email, ’cause we’re doing some enrichment on the back end. And then from that, we’re actually then able to push them into our tool and give them and score them using Mad Kudu, spit that back out in the chat bot to show them how they would map out if they were looking through the lens of like, okay, am I a fit for Mad Kudu? ‘Cause it’s using our scoring model.

Hana Jacover: So this then gave them a really quick and easy view into what that scoring would look like. What are some of the criteria that we score on. And that immediately generated, I don’t have numbers anymore in front of me, but like that immediately, we saw huge uptick in chatbot generated leads. And not only that, but chatbot generated leads that then turned into SALs and SQLs and close one deals, which was really fascinating to see of actually breaking that out as a lead source for us.

Tessa Burg: I love that example. And it goes back to, if you do wanna generate leads very quickly, then start with first, identify the need. What’s the problem you’re solving. Two, where are the people looking for information and trying to solve that problem, so you can syndicate that content or even just target them in other channels to get that intersection of your expertise and their problem. And then now you’re showing in order to start accelerating that person through the funnel, how are you actually demonstrating the value? Like just asking for that email address or after an intro, you’re showing them the value of the solution you’re using to solve their problem. That is fantastic. And really clearly kind of, if you have that visual of the funnel shows them from start going in.

Tessa Burg: So we talked about scoring. So now this person has seen the value of the tool. Maybe they’ve interacted with some other content. Tell us a little bit about how we know the value of that email address is it an MQL, is it an SQL? What are those factors?

Hana Jacover: Yeah, and I think that we are in like a couple different, we have a couple different phases of scoring happening today. I think we’ve got lead scoring 1.0, which is like practically nothing where it’s like everybody just kind of manually decides who’s qualified.

Hana Jacover: And then we have lead scoring 2.0, which is really still somewhat of a manual process, but we’re leveraging our marketing automation technology to actionize it, but it’s a little bit more stagnant. It shouldn’t be stagnant, but it tends to be. It’s not learning as people evolve and as companies evolve. So there’s not a learning component to that. So it’s hard to improve an existing scoring model unless you have somebody that’s really dedicated to doing that on a regular basis.

Hana Jacover: And then I think we have leads scoring 3.0, which is very exciting to me and is starting to emerge a little bit more prevalently. And that’s why I spent time at Mad Kudu is because I think, they’re in that category of bringing in the actual learning component and taking a lot of the hard work off of people developing the and up-keeping these manual models. And not only that, but lead scoring, can be lead scoring 1.0 and 2.0, so subjective. You’re literally just asking somebody or saying, yeah, that looks qualified to me. Or yeah, I’d like to include criteria in this area, this area, in this area. And I think that this is the best fit for our business leads scoring 3.0 removes that subjectivity because we’re leveraging historical data points to tell you, no, these are the best people. And we know that because we’re looking at the numbers and we’re running a number of different algorithms to figure out all of the different scenarios that get us to that point and spitting out the criteria that are actually relevant to that journey, which is why I think lead scoring 3.0 is amazing.

Hana Jacover: But from a criteria perspective, I always kind of like to think of three different categories. Some people have two, some people are thinking really just kind of like ICP, demographic firmographic as one category and then behavioral as another category.

Hana Jacover: And I actually like to break it out into three and I like to do ICP demographic firmographic, which should always be, tells you somebody the fit of do they, are they somebody that you should even be doing business with from a fit perspective? And then looking at behavioral, of course, what actions are they taking that are an indication that they might be moving themselves through the journey in some way. And by what they’re consuming, you can kind of take your best guess at where they are in their journey as well. And then I also like to consider what I call qualification criteria, which can be very similar to the first category of like ICP demo firmo. But it’s thinking a little bit more deeply about your specific offering and the requirements that are necessary for you to do business with somebody. So that might look like I have a client right now that looks at processing volume.

Hana Jacover: At Mad Kudu, we like to know how many leads you have coming in because there’s a certain time to value that can be assessed if you have a lower number of leads coming in versus a higher number of leads coming in. We had a number that says, if you have at least, X amount of leads coming through the door, your time to value is going to decrease and you’re going to actually see how this product works and how it can help you in a much faster way. So for us, that’s a winner. Like we want those people.

Hana Jacover: So that’s kind of that third bucket is the qualification criteria that I like to score on. And sometimes it’s literally just for the conversation and segmentation, you may not have a score attached to it, but it is important that we’re looking at that, categorizing it and capturing it and passing it to sales.

Tessa Burg: I really like the idea of lead generation scoring 3.0, but especially ’cause I don’t like other people’s opinions and subjectivity drives me crazy. What is the volume that you need to get that value, like, can it be, I’m getting just a few leads every week or does it have to be amount of like a hundred or a thousand in order to really get enough data to make that scoring accurate?

Hana Jacover: That’s a good question. I think it depends and that was a very specific qualifier at Mad Kudu. And we would say you need at least 2000 leads a month to really allow for us to have enough data to make these assumptions and actually do some of the learning behind it. So I mean I think it’s a great rule of thumb, but I also think it depends on what your product is and exactly what your market looks like. You might not even have that big of a universe. So you might be working with people that, or have your ICP. They might not even be generating that amount of traffic because that’s just not how they operate. So yeah, I think it just sort of depends. I don’t mean to have it be a little bit of a nebulous answer, but it’s the truth.

Tessa Burg: Yeah, well I think we’ve learned some shocking truths on this call. One, there are no silver bullets that’s shocking and two there’s no one size fits all, another for an answer. And I am joking, but it is funny, ’cause I think there is a perception, that there should be an easy button and a lot of times when programs aren’t going well or unsuccessful, I feel like the tech actually gets blamed first. Somebody wants to switch the tool, but they’re missing the opportunity to really kind of go back up at the top and say, are we targeting the right people? Are we putting our value and expertise in the right place to solve the big problems and challenges of why we even exist as a business? But what are some of the other components or factors that contribute to unsuccessful lead gen programs?

Hana Jacover: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I’m gonna be super transparent here ’cause I see this as a consistent problem in our industry and I wanna call it out specifically. We don’t have patience and we do a lot of things to please our board members, right?

Tessa Burg: Yes.

Hana Jacover: And I mean it’s really frustrating as a marketer because if you are a good marketer, you’re serving the customer, you’re serving your team, you’re serving sales, but when you have a boss or anybody else in the company that says, no, I serve the board, that is a direct competition to what your priority is. And it can have a huge impact on the programs that you wanna put in place that you truly believe will connect with that other person on the other end that you’re serving. And a lot of times you see that get shot down and we see things rushed because as we’re serving the board, we see things rushed because we’re trying to meet our numbers very quickly. And it’s really a shame and it’s something that’s not going away because this is what we’ve created.

Hana Jacover: And this is in fact how the rest of our society works as well, but it is worth calling out and evaluating for. If you’re in a leadership just keep that in mind so we can better, I feel like sometimes when finger-pointing happens of the real reason was because I was rushed. And why was I rushed? Is because you’re looking for that performance that without the realistic expectations around how long it’s actually gonna take to create something really special, and really impactful because that’s what we’re really here to do. And that takes some time. So I think that is probably the biggest killer of demand gen marketing campaigns in general. Lack of patience, misalignment around who we’re serving.

Tessa Burg: Yes, I definitely agree. I think that for people who are leaders listening, there is an opportunity to start putting real metrics and real value against great customer experience. I feel like we’re always looking at just the bottom funnel metrics and those are the only things that the board has seen. And so that’s what they also get fixated on, is like, yes, I want the money, the money. What makes the money go up? And we’re not showing that it really starts much earlier in the process, that we will get more money if at the top of the process we are serving the customer from the first touch on. And yes, that does take time.

Tessa Burg: I also think Hana you’ve given the audience some really good tools to get there. I love the pillars, the people, process, tech, and there you can scale effort in each of those pillars up and down, but you do need all three. So there are, you know, we use the word pilot a lot. We can pilot something while we have a more aspirational plan, but even we know that this pilot will be limited.

Tessa Burg: And sometimes I think when people do small pilots or put a lot of resources on something small that can’t scale, you just have to be very specific and leaders have to recognize what those are for. It’s for data learnings and it is way too much money for that one effort. And if you are going to invest, then you do need patience, but patience will pay off. So it’s a balancing act. And I think that a lot of it, just has to do with how we communicate up so that we kind of stop this self-fulfilling prophecy of like the board’s obsessed with profit and margins and metrics. It’s like, yes, but is that all you’re showing them?

Hana Jacover: Yeah, and for the most part it is because they don’t care, they don’t have time. But what’s really special is when you have a board or advisors or people that are very much invested in the business at the top that see when you have the time and space to have a stellar campaign and they acknowledge that and they acknowledge the team, they acknowledge that hard work and that effort.

Hana Jacover: And so I think it’s important, especially if you’re looking for a company to join, like ask about the board, ask about advisors. They play a very big part in the company and the company growth, whether you know it or not. And so, as much of visibility you can get there, I think the better, and I’ve been in a position where it it’s been surprising to hear my efforts, my team’s efforts called out by the board around more and given more specificity than just like, yeah, these metrics look good. It was like, no, this was an amazing campaign because we were connecting with the right people and what progress we made and how creative. So yeah, that’s really special when you find that.

Tessa Burg: That is that’s amazing. Well, we are up on time. This was a very robust and deep conversation. So thank you again for being our guest and where can people find you if they have any questions or wanna reach out to you directly?

Hana Jacover: Yeah, thank you for having me. You can find me all places really I’m everywhere, even though I shouldn’t be. LinkedIn is the best place. Send me a note, connect with me. If you wanna learn more about my consulting and coaching business, you can send me an email at [email protected] and I’m in a bunch of different slack communities as well on Twitter. So I really am everywhere.

Tessa Burg: That’s great. Well, thank you, and if you want to hear this episode or any of the past episodes, including our other interview with Hana, visit Tenlo.com and click on podcasts, you’ll see the full list there. Until next time, have a great week and best of luck solving your target audiences biggest challenges.