Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: Using Data To Connect With “Super Fans”

Paul Roberts: Hey, welcome to another episode of rapid testing.ai. Show where they help B2B and CPG marketers generate data that turns into money, like real money. Well, and the one woman who’s going to tell us how to do that, Tessa Burg. She’s the vice president of UX and technology Strategy at Tenlo. Tessa and her team at Tenlo have collaborated with data, science, software and marketing experts in the last 10 years to develop and continuously evolve how rapid testing can effectively and efficiently help clients bring new products to market. And today she’s brought with you who? Welcome Tessa, who’d you bring with you?

Tessa Burg: Hello and welcome to another edition of rapid testing.ai. Today’s guest comes from the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and she’s basically a celebrity herself. Thanks for joining us, Ellie.

Ellie Ovsenik: Thank you so much for having me. I’m definitely a behind the scenes celebrity, if I’m even going to be in that category. But it’s great to be here.

Tessa Burg: We’re really excited to jump right in and learn about how data and digital play a role at the rock and roll hall of fame. We are recording this episode from Cleveland Ohio, which for those who don’t know is where the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is located.

Ellie Ovsenik: It is where the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame city.

Tessa Burg: Yes. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to the Rock Hall?

Ellie Ovsenik: I am not musically inclined. I will just get that out of the way ahead of time, but I am a huge fan of music, avid concert goer. I went to many, many local shows in high school and I found myself Rolling Stone reader, ticket stub collector, all those good things. And really never even considered working at the Rock Hall, which sounds funny to be a local native and think that it’s an entity that’s beyond somewhere that I could work. And four years ago, I was just at someone’s summer party and ran into someone who had just moved actually from New York City, a much cooler, bigger city to work in Cleveland at the Rock Hall. And they told me about an open position that was right up my alley with digital marketing and content marketing. And that’s how I found myself in this backyard gem that I’d always grown up around.

Tessa Burg: That’s awesome. So now you’re serving as the director of digital marketing and advertising. Tell us a little bit about the marketing goals for the Rock Hall.

Ellie Ovsenik: Yeah. So I’ll start with what our core mission is. Our core mission is teach, engage, inspire through the power of rock and roll. And where I really come in to that equation is the engage part. Engage means that you’re a fan of ours, it’s digital, you’re a museum visitor, basically anyone who is a fan of any rock and roll music out there should also consider us as part of a bucket list of achievements. Something that everyone’s got to walk through to see how your favorite artists are all put up together. So my goals would then be driving attendance, driving awareness for exhibits, making sure that people are coming to all of our events and programs, and also making sure our pipeline is filled with new leads, whether those are people who are potential visitors, potential partners, and really making sure that we have that broad awareness, not only for the artists that we induct and the people we celebrate, but also as a cultural institution.

Tessa Burg: That’s a lot of responsibility.

Ellie Ovsenik: It is.

Tessa Burg: So tell us a little bit about what are some of the peak times of the year? Do you feel like there’s some events that get more marketing attention than others or others that drive higher attendance?

Ellie Ovsenik: It’s really interesting because there’s a museum or a cultural institution. We are a nonprofit, but at the same time, we are a travel and visitor destination as an attraction. So we’re always bouncing these two lines between being mission-based and some of the programs and endeavors that we do that are more to serve the community and give back versus creating a compelling attraction that we want people to come all over the globe and experience. So really balancing those two worlds, if I’m looking at what’s going to drive the revenue, it’s really that general admission ticket. So I focus a lot on tapping into these different fan bases and music fans across the globe really and making sure that we are priority as far as being a destination.

Ellie Ovsenik: And in that, we’re tapping into the Cleveland brand too where it’s an authentic place, it’s gritty, it’s a lot of fun. You can see all kinds of different people here and experience world-class culinary next to a dive bar that’s super fun and does karaoke. So all of that factors into our favor when we’re really trying to sell people on not only a Rock & Roll Hall of Fame visit, but a Cleveland visit and making return trips and telling your friends and all that good word of mouth stuff.

Tessa Burg: That’s fantastic. So as a native Clevelander I’ve been to the Rock Hall a number of times.

Ellie Ovsenik: Thank you for your support.

Tessa Burg: Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you for having an amazing museum. But tell us about some of the other customers. Do you notice similarities? Who is your ideal target and how are you learning about how to best connect and motivate them to come to the Rock Hall?

Ellie Ovsenik: I think a huge shift for us that happened a couple years before I started but has been carried through pretty dramatically in the last couple of years, was that we worked with another group to really hone in on a persona for the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. And it’s not the traditional persona from, I will say more regular data categories like age range and gender and household income, we said let’s find behavior-based people because everyone has entertainment choices, entertainment categories, [inaudible 00:06:03] naturally go up every year in spend, but the spend is on different entertainment that you can consume. Sports being one, film being another, live music and entertainment. And then we fall within that travel and live music world. So when we really established what the key markers were for the behaviors that were going to lead us to people most receptive to a trip to the museum, I think that just unlocked this idea that data became more personable to us.

Ellie Ovsenik: And it created this picture of the ideal visitor that was ageless, was sexless, that didn’t have a preconceived notion about them. It was really the way that they chose to consume media, what their preferences were with travel and then how they valued cultural institutions overall that led us to this formula of like, we need more of that, we need those people who travel to different countries or I’m sorry, cities is to see their favorite band multiple times on a tour. We need those people who are going to invest in the trip here because they see it as something that’s a must have experience.

Tessa Burg: That’s awesome.

Ellie Ovsenik: Yeah.

Tessa Burg: So once you’ve identified these behaviors, what tactics are you using to connect with that audience?

Ellie Ovsenik: So that’s where our serving comes into play. And it’s a little counterintuitive I think because we’re always going off of last year’s survey data. But we’re continually using people who come through our doors, getting them into our different survey funnels. They’re put into different algorithms that tell us on a scale of one to five where they fall as far as having affinity for music, culture and travel. And then we’re using that music fan base to seed additional targeting essentially, and building and tapping into the group of established music fans and seeing how we can do community building through like, tell your friends, tell your family. If you’re this person, there’s a higher probability that you are friends with people like yourself. And really assessing out what are their expectations as far as when they come to the Rock Hall. What do we need to deliver to ensure that they are that right advocate to go back out to market and say, “You got to do this.” Versus we find these people and attract them and then they come and are like, “This isn’t what I would have wanted.”

Tessa Burg: Yeah. That’s really interesting. So tell me about some of the digital marketing channels that play a role in that behavioral tracking and then also providing content or influence to people who’ve already visited.

Ellie Ovsenik: Definitely. We’re very digitally active. We’re across all the main social channels. Our website just went through a redesign and our email database is very healthy. We make sure that we’re always maintaining the subscribers who want to be their mindset. But within that, we are always looking at those points of engagement. So for instance, I know unequivocally that content about the Beatles is going to provide a high-level of engagement. That’s just what our surveying tells us, that’s the people who are coming to the museum are saying unanimously like , “We love the Beatles.” Which is great because we have a lot of Beatles stuff like, thank God.

Ellie Ovsenik: But we’re taking that into consideration. We’re saying, “Okay, how can we use the Beatles as the framework for the content but then make it the Rock Hall story of them and make it more about the experience. And if the Beatles are your gateway, how are they relating to other artists that are represented in other pieces of a Sonic history that you might not necessarily think of when you just say, I love the Beatles.”

Tessa Burg: Yeah. So you said the word Sonic history. And before we got on air, we were talking about an exhibit that does an awesome job of bringing that Sonic history to life. What is the definition of Sonic history?

Ellie Ovsenik: So internally we just use that phrase because of really the way that we define rock & roll. And that’s at the crux of a lot of our digital engagement is this idea of what is rock, what is not rock? What is rock becoming? How do you celebrate it? And the Sonic history is really just looking at the time circumstances and the people who use these instruments to create these monumental songs that basically inspired change, inspired other people to pick up instruments and follow along in their footsteps. And then the rifts of what that became, so starting with people like the Delta Blues and Robert Johnson and all of these forefathers of guitar and rock. And then how does that translate when Led Zeppelin picks that up? And that influences the Beatles. And I’m totally not doing a great job being educational because I definitely rely on our world-class education staff to provide me with this backbone of content to go out into the world and really connect with fans on.

Ellie Ovsenik: But even as just someone who’s been there for a while and has walked these halls and appreciates the same stuff that you saw, you really get a sense of the music is bigger than one time location or person who’s singing. So Elvis and Lady Gaga and Mick Jagger and Diana Ross all have this commonality between them that on the surface, their songs couldn’t sound more not alike, but who they were as perpetrators of this Rock & Roll stuff and what it meant to them and what it meant to the society that their imprint was on, I think that’s how we unite them in same house.

Tessa Burg: So that feels very immersive.

Ellie Ovsenik: It is.

Tessa Burg: Very experiential. How do you get what you just described and the feeling that people have when they come to the Rock Hall outside of Cleveland and outside the walls to share that with others?

Ellie Ovsenik: It’s a huge challenge. On social media especially, which we were talking a little bit about. It’s a very siloed, polarizing social media world right now. People are really finding their niche and finding what’s been curated for them and wanting to stay there and wanting things to that be their source of truth. And everything I just walked you through is very gray as far as what music fans would consider sometimes because they have a certain definition of what they believe Rock & Roll to be. And if it steps outside of those boundaries, we’re shifting even their identity by… I’ll give you a great, an easy example of saying hip hop has a place in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. That’s very hard for some people to come to terms with but when we’re doing our storytelling, we’re always trying to connect through the agent of these artists are impactful.

Ellie Ovsenik: They’re trailblazers, they definitely add an artist to artist. Peer level are influenced by one another in surprising ways that maybe fans wouldn’t always put together, but they carry the tradition. So we’re carrying the tradition of doing our best to try and make our social media as immersive and non-siloed as possible. And at the same time, hoping people come and buy tickets and see what we’re selling out there.

Tessa Burg: When you said, “We hope people come and buy tickets.” Tell me a little bit about how do you measure? Are you able to tie back the ticket sales to the content and the data that you’re using to tell these stories online?

Ellie Ovsenik: We’re building as much as we can that picture out because it’s so invaluable to know what is moving the needle as far as conversion. And I would even consider the people who subscribed and opt into our email communications as a very important conversion for us. Because you might be a fan of ours on Facebook and for 10 years, and engage with my content.

Ellie Ovsenik: You watch our videos, you like things, you share things, you’re consistently showing up in my social templates scorecard being as a check like, great. You’re adding to all these wonderful metrics and values, but your circumstances might not bring you to this region for 10 years. So that’s always something. Again, going back to that behavior-based model where we’re really driving that conversion of ticket sales, that affinity for travel and that propensity for travel piece is just huge for us to incorporate into our targeting because we need people who are willing to travel essentially. So we’re trying to find those music fans who also take action. Not just music fans who are clicking like, and I value them a lot, but they’re not in the same funnel as going to convert for me.

Tessa Burg: Yeah. I think it’s funny because a lot of our clients here at Tenlo and a lot of the listeners work in large sales organizations where the number one goal is to get leads. And similarly, we have found that when you start scoring people based more on behavior and not on a geographic or their demographic information, that yes, it’s a better predictor of whether or not they’re going to buy from you.

Ellie Ovsenik: And it’s just the things I think when you’re looking at it in totality for us at the visitor footprint, because I do a lot of region-based scraping on our GA to figure out, what regions are sending, converting traffic through our website? Because that’s a huge indicator for me of different places that might be more prone to tourism travel. It’s-

Tessa Burg: You guys do an awesome job of effectively applying data and measuring. Tell us about some of the challenges that you face in getting people to come visit our amazing town of Cleveland, Ohio.

Ellie Ovsenik: And I’ll say, Cleveland, we are an amazing town. I love it here, but there’s definitely a seasonality to visiting from the outside. For instance, we have our, unsurprising to anyone, we have our largest visitor attendance May to September. Also coincides with the best weather that we’ll see. So I wouldn’t expect us to be able to drive these freak peaks in January and February when it’s -20 outside. I don’t know that there’s that much demand for travel, but we do work really closely with destination Cleveland and their overall event calendar, try and capitalize on all the different events that they’re working hard to bring here, all the conventions. That stuff is so important to us in our business too. So they’re a great partner, but we really just are from that attraction side, competing sometimes with other similar destination cities around us, your Chicago’s your, Nashville’s your, Detroit’s your Pittsburgh’s where we all have the same weather to contend with.

Ellie Ovsenik: We all have the same landlocked geographic footprint, but what are the things that we’re doing to convince similar people who are looking for similar experiences? Nightlife, music, interesting things to take in, cultural aspects. How are we helping Cleveland? And how’s Cleveland helping us to be able to be a better beacon than some of these other places? Because I do think that if you’re talking about people in California, in Florida, in Texas and they’re making travel decisions to come into these general regions, how are we raising our hand and saying like, ” Pick us over Nashville.” Which I think they are brilliant, they’re the bachelor and bachelorette capital of the world. What a better way to get groups of 5-15 people for everything?

Tessa Burg: Yes. I was recently in Nashville and was overwhelmed by the amount of pink on flatbed trucks going down the street.

Ellie Ovsenik: They have created industries in Nashville that cater completely to this kind of travel. And that’s where you see that digital savvy and that word of mouth and it’s all about the experience being paid off or what you’re building it up to be that it’s like now in every maid of honor’s mind when she has to plan the bachelorette party, she’s already thinking Nashville because it’s this laid out safe bet of a good time. And we have great peers over the country music hall of fame in Nashville and they’re right in the epicenter of these different places where people are seeing live music, music rows down the street. I sat on the patio out there and saw at least 20 of these flatbeds drive by on a Saturday afternoon. So they’re positioned in this place where they have this tourism driving through. And I think that’s where we’re always trying to look at and say, what is bringing people to Cleveland? If it’s not us at the Rock Hall, then what else can we be amenable to fitting into that?

Tessa Burg: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So we’ve heard a lot of interesting information so far, and I’m excited to ask a few more questions. But before I do, we’re going to take a short break for a commercial.

Paul Roberts: And we just want to again remind you that rapid testing.ai is the newest show on Tenlo radio. It’s being syndicated here on funnel radio channel and over other stations like OC Talk Radio here in orange County. It’s brought to you by Tenlo, Tenlo is a pipeline marketing agency that focus on quickly identifying and converting high value leads. That’s the key. Don’t just find them. You got to do something with them. Visit Tenlo.com to learn how you can use this magical digital marketing process to get more out of your trade shows, website and sales support groups. It’s all waiting for you at Tenlo.com just like it sounds. T.e.n.l.o, Tenlo.com

Tessa Burg: And we’re back. So the last point you made before we took our short break for informative commercial was what are the other things that Cleveland can be doing to be another type of attraction for people who might be interested in the Rock Hall? Because I agree if there’s only one thing to do at a city, you might not fly from California just to come to Cleveland just for the Rock Hall.

Ellie Ovsenik: Yeah.

Tessa Burg: Are there certain things that you see that Cleveland is investing in or that really resonate with the Rock Hall visitors like, people where the Rock Hall they’re also doing what?

Ellie Ovsenik: So it’s very helpful that we have three professional sports teams here. You do get those traveling fan bases. That’s definitely part of our marketing strategy. We have different teams in their team basis that we target digitally because we know that if there’s a Yankee series or Red Sox series, when the Indians are playing and it’s home, it’s going to be a great sold out weekend. There’s just those known things. We definitely carry that over into Brown season with the home games about where people are coming from. But even that has tested our learning in such unexpected ways. I’m very excited to keep applying new ideas. If you looked at our home schedule this year, which we ran a digital campaign and we did, radio, and I don’t think we’re doing an outdoor for that one. But we definitely went heavy on targeting people through known sports sites and dropping in front of these fan bases and saying, “Hey, while you’re coming to Cleveland to see the Bills play, make sure you go to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.”

Tessa Burg: Yeah.

Ellie Ovsenik: The Seahawks, they’re were the largest traveling fan base this year.

Tessa Burg: How interesting.

Ellie Ovsenik: And they are some of the furthest away people. And that’s where you always have to let the data make decisions beforehand. I could not have known that before that weekend, just rolled around. But also taking into consideration the next time we do this to not let my preconceived notions of what people are willing to do and what they’re willing to travel for. That’s where as a human and a marketer, it’s like, I need to rely more on the data. Because our data really does suggest that sometimes people are willing to get on a plane just for this thing, especially when they’re already in a market that is very expensive. It’s hard to have experiences at home, which is something that Clevelanders, I don’t think we have to go through that.

Ellie Ovsenik: The fact that some of these concerts that are coming up are sold out already, I think is blowing the minds of many of my friends. Sort of like, “Sold out concert? I can’t get tickets anymore?” But these people in Seattle can’t get football tickets, can’t go and see these big shows because the demand is just so high and the prices are exorbitant that at some point in time, it makes financial sense for them to get on a plane and come to Cleveland to watch their team play.

Tessa Burg: Yeah, and the food and the hotels are cheaper too.

Ellie Ovsenik: And it’s a reason to travel with the challenge is not trying to make the decision ahead of time for who the potential customer is, but really stepping back and saying, “I know that maybe I wouldn’t fly to Seattle because those are my circumstances.”

Tessa Burg: That is a really interesting perspective. So other than sports, do you see other forms of entertainment or other, I guess maybe not even entertainment, but other telling behaviors that the data shows is priority for targeting over other factors?

Ellie Ovsenik: I think our peers at Cleveland Museum of Art are tapped into us too, for sure. The way that they’re choosing to do their special exhibits. I mean, they were fortunate enough to land the infinity mirrors. And I know that that drove a lot of drive traffic. And because again, it’s only in select cities and if you know where it is on the schedule, it’s easier to come to in Cleveland if you’re from Pittsburgh rather than Toronto. So I think that was a very smart, calculated move to make them more of an attraction because I know the museum of art is so beloved by locals. I love it there too, but tapping into a wider culture and making bigger bets I think, are things that other organizations, I hope I see more of it. Because I think that it might seem like to us in our own internal perception that we’re not resonant enough to drive that traffic and drive people to come here. But I think we really are.

Tessa Burg: Yeah.

Ellie Ovsenik: That’s what the data keeps telling me at the Rock Hall. And trusting that and making bigger partner buys and ad buys and different national markets. That’s where we’re seeding that future travel too because some of our fans, they’re going to age out of the ability to travel at some point in time. So we’re going to need the younger fans who are going through their own musical journeys right now, fans of the Billie Eilish and the tame Impalas and people who aren’t thinking Rock Hall because their artist is much more let’s say in the Grammy space. We still need to be considered by them at some point. And if they are making themselves concert goers now, and they’re making those steps to become those people, those are great leads for us to keep working on.

Tessa Burg: I really like and I feel like this is another parallel to business to business marketing and even services that you think so deeply about different audiences circumstances and use that as a way to keep asking questions of, what would provide the most value to them? What do you think is the next or maybe not the next, but what are some simple things other destinations or even other marketers can do to start down this road of using their empathy for their target audience and their behavior audience data in their own marketing?

Ellie Ovsenik: That’s a great question. And there’s a couple things I would suggest. I think that any business can make itself the destination in the market. If that’s a physical location that you have as a store, if that’s an online destination. Everyone is in a business with some competition and we are such an experiential and focused on service culture that I think that you can take any learning or anything to set yourself apart.

Ellie Ovsenik: If it can’t happen at the product category or the service level, it has to happen in the way that you are delivering some experience to your potential customers. And embrace the idea that you are powerful enough as a company and an entity that you can sway and attract other people. I think that’s just something and it’s a mindset that then can tailor down into what data do you collect? And do you do any surveying? And what do you really do with those survey results? And being more honest about the level of empathy that you want to use to attract those customers. Because for us, using our CRM, one of the biggest gains for me is its flexibility and creating all different data customization. Because predetermine from me went down this path of not wanting to use traditional data, not wanting to use traditional markers to signify to us who our best customers were.

Ellie Ovsenik: Now, it’s following that trend of every year that we do a fan vote, I need to know who’s voting for which artists and at what cadence, because now that I know who’s being inducted and I can tell my super fan who’s voted 80 days in a row versus someone who voted just once. If I’m really looking to seed the best fan experience, and let’s say, this actually real life I’m working on this right now. We’re going to have a red carpet experience. It’s going to be a spot for 50 fans to be there, to see their artists and be part of that. Aren’t those 20 super fans that I can identify and know beyond doubt that their internal passion was to be that everyday voter and to support that then. Are those the best people to tap into and say, “Here’s this experience just for you.” Because their output of it is going to be the best reflection of us.

Tessa Burg: That is interesting.

Ellie Ovsenik: So I’m looking for them, I have them. It’s definitely one of those things where we’re like, why sell a ticket when you can give it to a super fan? Because that will resonate so much wider and in such a more authentic way than… Because going to the highest bidder, it’s the StubHub conversation. It’s, “I can’t get access to anything. This sucks.” Real fans can’t go to stuff. We’re very cognizant of that that it’s very challenging.

Tessa Burg: That is amazing. I mean, I wish… Now I know to vote a lot.

Ellie Ovsenik: I just backed myself into a corner next year when I see all these super fans like damn it.

Tessa Burg: Because you’re right. The impact on someone who is already following, already wants to be there, is a deep fan of the music and not just doing it to be on a carpet, that’s totally different.

Ellie Ovsenik: And then at the same time using those targeted lists to seed potential follower growth and advertising on paid social media. I don’t want to have to try and pay to recreate that. I just did an activation that gave me the true data of, yes, these are the super fans. How do you then activate them? You know what I mean? I can’t make people care about something that the organization cares about if I’m not trying to connect with the authentic audience. The data leads me there.

Tessa Burg: And I think that’s something not only can businesses take away tapping into their best customers passion, but even trade shows and certainly other travel destinations. It’s like align with who your customers are and yet don’t always go for the highest price.

Ellie Ovsenik: It’s interesting too that you say that because I think that what’s under utilized sometimes in businesses is showing appreciation for that super customer or that long standing partner in unconventional ways can pay off in solidifying your relationship, creating value for them in a way that a competitor couldn’t even with a price cut or a discount because you as an entity and a business are always presented with different advertising options, right?

Ellie Ovsenik: And different advertorial pitches and different newsletter inclusions or all kinds of different ways that other entities are trying to get you to spread your message. But if you give those over to some of your fans, and even if you pay for some of them, you’re lifting their voice, which is in turn lifting yours. And you’re not necessarily… And I think you would have to invest more and spend more to have someone craft that for you.

Tessa Burg: And a lot of business to business companies in general are struggling with retention. And it does come down to what is that customer experience? Because a lot of things are going to start being sold on Amazon, even for business distributors. And if you aren’t deeply connected and celebrating who your best customers are and bringing that additional value, then that’s going to-

Ellie Ovsenik: Yeah. I mean, everyone likes a cheap price. That is something that everyone I think innately is attracted to like a moth to a flame. But it’s the same model that sometimes I grapple with or it’s like, do I just do discounts all the time because then wider dispersion of prices, more people accessibility. But it’s like, if you stick to your core price but deliver and exceed expectation, is someone really going to walk away being like, I can’t believe I spent $28 to go and have this full day immersion in my favorite music? And I learned and saw so many things and had takeaways I didn’t even know I would have. So that’s why for us, we invest a lot on the onsite experience. We are always trying to make it that much more connective and interactive, if anything, because that’s just the trends of where the market and attractions is going.

Tessa Burg: So Ellie before we go, is there anything exciting coming up at the Rock Hall?

Ellie Ovsenik: There’s always something exciting going on at the Rock Hall. And I say that in all seriousness. If you guys are listening and are interested, please hop over to rockhall.com. Look at our events calendar. We’ve got a full series of summer music coming out soon. We’re celebrating our 25th anniversary as a museum this year.

Tessa Burg: Oh, wow.

Ellie Ovsenik: Yeah. Big 25. And we’ve got inductions coming up into Cleveland. So if you’re a local, check out and see what you can do in the induction week events. It’ll be a lot of fun.

Tessa Burg: That’s great. I remember growing up and seeing the first designs of the Rock Hall and everyone being like, “That looks crazy and weird.”

Ellie Ovsenik: It’s funny because we were designed and built by the same architect who did Pyramid of the Louvre.

Tessa Burg: Okay.

Ellie Ovsenik: So he’s controversial everywhere he goes because he is very divided over there in Paris as whether or not that was the right thing to do. But I guess that’s just kind of the Rock and Roll attitude and mindset.

Tessa Burg: Yes, it is. Well, that’s awesome. Well, thank you for being a guest and go to what’s the website again?

Ellie Ovsenik: Rockhall.com.

Tessa Burg: Rockhall.com to check out the summer series and the upcoming events. Bye.

Paul Roberts: You’ve been listening to the rapid testing.ai podcast from Tenlo with your host Tessa Burg. Be sure to look for us in all your favorite podcast apps or on our site, rapidtesting.ai.