Maximizing The Value Of Your Website For Your CPG Brand

Tessa Burg: Hello and welcome to another episode of Leader Generation, brought to you by Mod Op. I’m your host, Tessa Burg. Today I’m joined by Lucie Repshire, Senior e-Commerce Manager and Jenn Day, the Search and Engagement Lead. And both of them work for the European team for Colgate-Palmolive. Thank you Jenn and Lucie for joining us today. We’re very excited to jump into what is the value and the role of the website for CPG brands.

Jenn Day: Thanks for having us.

Lucie Repshire: Yeah, thank you for having us. It’s the pleasure.

Tessa Burg: Let’s start with Lucie. Tell us a little bit about your background and the role you play at Colgate-Palmolive.

Lucie Repshire: So, hi everyone. I’m Lucie Repshire. I’ve been in digital roles for 15 years now within Startups publishing and in CPG at Colgate-Palmolive in Europe. So, I’ve done various roles all the way from building websites, SEO, paper click search, through to like four management social media. And most recently I’m in e-commerce and retail media. So gone through the full spectrum, but I have a real passion around search.

Tessa Burg: That’s awesome. And so, you are also joined by Jenn Day, disclaimer, Jenn and I crossed paths back when she was in the United States, so it’s really nice to see you again. Tell us a little bit about your background and role at Colgate-Palmolive.

Jenn Day: So as Tessa you just said, I am a born and raised Clevelander, so go Cavs. I have actually a really similar background in terms of digital to Lucie. So, 15 years in digital from a range of, working for agencies, which is how Tessa and I cross paths to working for premium brands, luxury brands, and across many digital touchpoints. So I started with websites and that just naturally evolved into search and social media, online PR, and then love took me to London. So, I’ve been here for about 10 years now and I’ve been at Colgate-Palmolive for about four years. So, part of my role is to oversee the development of our central strategies for traditional search and social media and websites. So, I’m really helping to ensure that we’re delivering best practices and governance and guidance to our local marketing teams. And I work closely with Lucie on holistic search.

Tessa Burg:  Yeah, and the way this topic even came up was I saw a post from Jenn about some training and learning she was doing in search and CPG, and it caught my eye because back in the day when I was a speaker at SEO conferences, without fail the CPG people would come up and say, “Well, I just don’t think the website actually helps drive sales. I don’t know if people are really, going to our website to find information about our product. Like how important is it, as long as we’re in the right place at the right time.” Fast forward, 10 years and the digital landscape has changed, the shopping landscape has changed. So, I’m really excited to jump in and hear, how has CPG evolved in their perspective of the role and value of not just the website, but digital and e-commerce overall. So, let’s jump into the first question, which we’ll look at this change in buying behaviors. And Lucie, I’ll start with you. What have the shifts been that have made digital more important in the CPG buying process?

Lucie Repshire: It has been quite a journey in the last few years. So, I would say starting at CPG like 11 years ago when I started at Colgate-Palmolive Digital was definitely a focus, but was no way as big as we see it now. It’s dramatically changed. And there has been one huge catalyst that we’ve all been through, live through, which is the Covid pandemic. So, when consumers changed a lot of their lifestyle, forced in many cases to change that, they also changed their research behaviors, their buying behaviors. Like a lot of shops were closed, especially in Europe where we both far, so a lots of people had to go online and they found new resources to find their information. So accelerated way past the normal trajectories of where we saw digital and e-commerce. And what we saw is the complete merging of both Jenn and my roles where she has traditional search we call digital search, like the Google search, the Bing search, where people looking in for information on the websites. And I have the e-commerce side. And actually those two worlds merged, consumers were no longer just going to find their information at websites because they used to go in store as well. They used to look at products physically pick them up. They couldn’t do that anymore. They were go to the retailer websites to find their information. So suddenly our worlds collided and this scale just went through the roof. And so that accelerated and obviously, companies like ours took notice very quickly of what was going on. We needed to work fast and to change the ways that we were working and looking at the consumer and being truly consumer-centric. And then our worlds basically changed overnight. So, it is been fascinating. We’re now seeing consumers change their behaviors slightly, well actually, quite a lot. They’re going back in store, freedoms are back, but they’re still using their old learned behaviors of finding the information and researching products online.

Tessa Burg: So, Jenn, when we think about traditional search and its role in the buying process during this big shift and even today, how has the role of search evolved? Like have you had to change anything about the content you’re putting out to respond to these changing behaviors?

Jenn Day: That’s a great question. So definitely the role of search has evolved, I think as a result, like it was evolving pre pandemic and it’s evolved as a result of the pandemic. So, in terms of how we’re evolving our search approach, it really is looking at, what is the intent of the search and being as consumer-centric as we can be. So why are they looking for this keyword? What is it that we think would be the most relevant content to provide them? Is that relevant content going to be on our website? Or actually would it be better to drive them to a retailer site? So, it’s really just had us kind of flip our approach on its head and get as focused and specific around the keywords that we’re going to be focusing on and really thinking about and sweating what that consumer experience is going to be across the people journey based on that keyword intent where we’re driving them.

Tessa Burg: So, in my past, whenever we’ve talked about, where to drive a customer, there’s always been this tension of, or even different departments within the company are handling offline retail sales versus e-commerce. And sometimes e-commerce folks are locked in their own little bubble, away from the marketing team and SEO. So what do marketers need to change today in order to break down those walls and what have you done at Colgate-Palmolive that has allowed you to sort of work through that tension that existed before the pandemic?

Jenn Day: I think some things that we’ve tried to do and it’s a journey, right? So, we’ve started to put some different practices in place, but I think identifying kind of the owners and drivers of those consumer insights in our organization. So obviously it usually falls within marketing, right? But what are any consumer insights we can be getting from our customer development teams and how do the CD and the marketing teams work together to share those insights across the business? Because we know that that data is going to be really critical in informing, the value of our messaging, our creative, our product positioning, whatever it might be. So, I think that’s one of the ways we’ve started working on how we can break down those silos and share data.

Tessa Burg: And Lucie, you mentioned before, it’s all about being customer-centric. From a functional standpoint, how does that change the way you market, communicate and sell your products?

Lucie Repshire: It’s actually quite a big change. So traditionally companies such as ours has a product. We have a great team of marketers who are highly skilled in bringing that product to market based on its claims, and what it can do for the consumer, that’s now been flipped on its head. So, if you’re really going consumer-centric, it’s what does a consumer want? And so, you need to pick up the signals based on that. So, what are they looking for? So, Jenn mentioned keywords earlier, highly important. What trends are coming up in keywords. So, are we seeing them look for different ingredients? Are we seeing them look for different types of benefits?

Lucie Repshire: And then from there you can use different tools to figure out from those types of searches, where are they going, where are they looking? And they may be seeking information at a retailer, significant searches start on retailer such as Amazon. Now that’s the first point in which a consumer will go and have a look at information, you’ve got fantastic content there, reviews, highly influential. And then they may go onto like a website where the wells of like Jenn’s, what she’s developing comes into play, but it’s starting up, what are they looking for? And then what can we do about that? So, looking at what’s in the market for that type of thing. Is there a gap in the market? How can we play? It’s a different way of looking things. And the same thing for content. It’s no longer acceptable to talk about the product in the way the brand wants to talk about the product. You have to see what the consumers are asking for, read reviews, what language do they use and play it back to them. It’s very much the consumer has to be in the center every time you create something, you need to ask, “Is this suitable? Is this what the consumer wants?”

Tessa Burg: So, I think the pandemic obviously lasted a lot longer than we all thought it would. And I don’t know if it’s still going on, but how can you tell when behavior is a short-term trend versus long-term? Because they know some of the things we’re talking about sound really good, let’s be customer-centric, let’s make sure the products where they want to buy it. But functionally that could require some major shifts. And there are different relationships that exist as you obviously know between e-commerce engines and different profit margins. So how do you know when it’s a good idea to follow that consumer behavior? because it’s going to be something that’s sustained in the long term versus, “You know what? This might be short and we have to do what we have to do now.” Tell me a little bit about that process.

Lucie Repshire: It’s a very difficult equation and none of us have a crystal ball, so it’s very hard, I think, to do this right, you’re going to have to be courageous and accept that there are going to be failures, with every five ideas that you have. One could be successful, but the others may fall at the wayside. And it’s that test and learn approach, agile approach to marketing, small scale tests, you don’t have to go into full production straight away with an idea like test it, test one market. It’s that type of approach will help you find, to see if something is a long-term growth or is a flash in the pan, something that just comes up, comes down again and not worth the effort to go into. I think in the past a lot of companies have waited too long to act and then the trend has gone other more agile players have come in, like smaller brands, they’ve taken that space and then it’s a lot harder to get in once someone else is established. And at the beginning of the call you mentioned SEO, like search engine optimization is not just on a website, it’s also on a retailer website. So working towards the algorithms of the retailers, building your content, owning those keywords early can establish your relevancy and you can own that space. So I would say the best approach is be courageous and test and learn. Like find those signals, track them constantly track, constantly be curious of what’s going on and then find the ones that you think have legs and then test.

Tessa Burg: I love that approach. I’m obsessed with data, so I’ve always loved testing because you never know if you’re right until you try. So, to recap where we’re at in this journey, we want CPG brands or I guess I’m saying I want, but you guys are making any demands of anyone. But if you’re a CPG brand listening, start with your internal data. Find who has the deepest knowledge of that customer, then look at search behavior across different channels. I like that you mentioned that Amazon has become a way that people research products doesn’t always mean they’re going to buy it there, but Amazon, for your products to be really successful, you have to have all those different views. I have found it’s very easy to read the label, the Amazon shots, and I’m seeing more CPG brands start to just pull some of those basic images onto their sites, make it easier to research and choose where you buy. But let’s move into how this is impacted marketing tactics. So, I have a good sense of my customer, I’m going to be courageous and start testing small to learn what will work based on that data. How have you seen a shift in the way you prioritize go-to-market tactics or strategies. And Lucie we’ll start with you.

Lucie Repshire: So that actually go-to-market strategies. It may be online first. It’s probably the bigger shift that we’ve done, it may be in some cases, direct to consumer. Look, there’s lots of ways that we can test products and see if they work like small-scale marketing budgets, looking at advertising on a retailer first, seeing what insights we can get and use those strategies, those insights for the larger, more integrated campaigns later on if the product is successful. So again, I’m talking about that test and learn. It’s very much that nature as well. When it comes into go-to-market strategies, it it’s not always the big pow straight in everything in it. It’s sometimes a bit more of a start and stop, learn as we go, learn, pivot, change, and then you get a successful equation. When you do have the data, that’s when it’s really powerful. So, if you can do close-loop attribution, then yeah, life’s a winner. It’s very rare, it’s very hard to get, but that is what to be striving for.

Tessa Burg: So that is a massive shift. When I worked at a CPG company, I felt like us in the digital department were like the black sheep, it’s like the retail team, the people on the sales team that sold into retail, they were the heroes and we were like, whatever’s happening over in crazy land digital is what’s happening. So that is such a massive shift. So, Jenn, tell me a little bit in this shift to digital-first, how do we know that being customer-centric, starting to look at where they begin their journey is working?

Jenn Day: That’s a good question. So, Lucie and I try to approach everything as holistically as we can. The business in general, we’re trying to approach things more holistically. So, from an omnichannel perspective in my warehouse, looking at more, traditional search and social, we’ll be looking at any indication that this is working based on a growth in impressions or in clicks, click through rate engagement on the site. But then also we would be looking at things like share voice, share of search, how sentiment is growing and changing and anything in terms of, an increase in brand me mentions, factors like that. So, a good blend of qual and quan, but then from more of a retail and an e-commerce space. Lucie, happy to get your thoughts on that one.

Lucie Repshire: It’s a challenging area in the e-commerce world. It over many, many years of, and you’ve mentioned about the e-commerce teams being siloed off, it’s very true. And also a lack of real KPIs. Roaz return on Aspen has been a go-to for many, many brands, but it has serious implications for going after Roaz. Yes, becomes, a good metric of return on what you’ve spent on, but it doesn’t give you the full picture. So naturally with the search algorithms and any retail media algorithms, it goes towards the most likely people to purchase. But normally your customer’s already. So, you’re just cannibalizing and you end up pulling yourself into a situation where you cannot grow because you’re hitting with frequency so high on this small group of people, that will click and will buy, but they would’ve probably already purchased. So, you’re not growing your share of market. You’re not growing your brand.

Lucie Repshire: So, we’ve been reeducating the company about, return on investment versus Roaz. So, some of the metrics are very similar to Jenn’s, share of voice, how visible are we? And then looking at new to brand metrics as well as sales. Sales is never going to go away obviously, but product pages. So, we know that over 60% of people are digitally influenced with what they see on the PDP pages at retailers. So, we need glance views, we need eyes on our content and we spend a lot of time and effort creating this great content and reading the reviews of our great products. So, it’s very much looking at, clicks, lands on page, sales, new to brand metrics, but also the bringing into the topic at the very beginning SEO, we know that our organic ranking is extremely important as well as our paid ranking on these channels. So, we’ll also be tracking that. So a key KPI for us, and I know Jenn has this as well-paid and organic working together. One influences the other. There’s this full cycle going around. We cannot ignore that in our return investments for long-term growth.

Tessa Burg: I love that answer because it tells CPG marketers that if you haven’t started looking at digital, it’s a way to grow your brand, then you’re missing a huge opportunity.

Lucie Repshire: Exactly, yeah.

Tessa Burg: That when we use return on ad spend and we invest a lot in what I’ll call quote unquote “Brand channels for awareness,” to your point, we are hitting a lot of the same people and is it really providing value back to your customer-centric approach? So if we want to provide value to the customer and be customer-centric and let them buy where they need, then we have to use that search and social data first to see where can we grow, how do we respond to what they want and the information they need, and then layer in the other tactics. So, I think that gives marketers a really clear priority, on where to start and what to prioritize first.

Tessa Burg: I do think you both are very courageous because this is, these answers sound so easy, but I know that internally it is really hard to sort of push these new ways of thinking. And do you think that there are any specific channels or specific skills that marketers need to start building, especially in CPG to help them keep up with, or maybe not even keep up? Because I’ve never met a bad CPG marketer, like CPG marketers are some of the most obvious, but what are some of the emerging channels that maybe they just need to keep their eye on where we see consumers going now, places maybe they haven’t gone before to find more information and engage with the brand. And Lucie, you want to start?

Lucie Repshire: Yeah, I can talk about the channels. So, in my world, one of my greatest passions recently is retail media. So, a lot of time traditional marketers in CPG wouldn’t have touched this, it would be in the shopper teams, the sales teams. So, they’re not as familiar with how the retailers work. So, certainly get familiar with what’s going on in the retail media world. Get close to the teams, work collaboratively, omnichannel world, teams need to be working together and thinking to that to like general skills that they need to be thinking about is marketers need to be commercial marketers. It’s not one or the other, especially in the omnichannel world, the consumer doesn’t make the distinction and nor should we. So that flow of information, that partnership needs to be constant. And the other change I would say is get ready and get familiar with data, be comfortable with data, build up your data skills, that is definitely going to be an essential part of the future of marketing.

Tessa Burg: Yes, I agree. Jenn, do you have anything to add? And have you seen specifically data because search people who typically just really love data, have you seen any other uses where even the use of data, the use of information from search and social and research has begun to evolve where markers have an opportunity to leverage it more?

Jenn Day: I mean, I think just leveraging, thinking about SEO data, I think that’s something that isn’t leveraged as much as it could be across other channels. So, people also ask data, taking that, using it as a way to test different headlines for your CRM or any of your email campaigns. I think just lifting and sharing data across other channels like social media or CRM, just to get to know your audience more is something that we could start doing more of as CPG marketers across the board. But then I also think social commerce is a place that we need to continue to focus on and to upskill as CPG marketers, millennials are super comfortable with e-commerce, gen Z is even more comfortable with social commerce, it’s really all about the experience there. The algorithm can tailor what you’re seeing, what you’re being targeted with and that is just going to have a more personalized shopping experience that we know more and more people want. So, I think that is an area where it can remove some of the friction between product searching, product desire and checkout. And that’s an area that I think all CPG marketers should keep an eye on and keep upskilling on because it can also impact offline sales in retail environments. We’re seeing more TikTok made me buy it stickers, it’s on packs, it’s point of sale. So, the offline and the online there is just a place that we should keep more focus on because we know that the omnichannel shopper is present and exist. People aren’t as likely to be exclusively online shoppers or offline shoppers. Like we may have been thinking a bit more pre-pandemic.

Tessa Burg: Yeah, I agree. I think that sort of emergence of social shopping, even though I buy a ton of clothing, because I saw it on Instagram when I saw the stats of how common that is that over like 80% of millennial women research and buy on Instagram or because they saw it on Instagram or TikTok, I was like, “Holy crud.” For some reason I felt like I was like the only one and I like.

Jenn Day: I know because I think you grow up with like you wouldn’t. Yeah, because I think you grow up with like, you wouldn’t trust to buy something that, like, I don’t know. But it was as seen on TV used to be the thing like remember when you go to CVS and you see the end cap of all the things that were advertised on TV. This is just the evolution of that.

Tessa Burg: Yeah. And do you think that’s going to continue in some ways or is there an opportunity for it to get more immersive or deeper with some web three tools? Is that, have you-

Jenn Day: Oh,  that’s a great point. It’s something that, I mean I think the answer that you would assume to that is yes, more in-app features, more augmented reality and everything that’s going to just create that personalized experience more. So, I think you can expect that that is going to be a direction that more and more brands are going and exploring and investing in, in the future. Who knows what the future holds with that necessarily. But I think it’s just going to be a really interesting space to watch and especially as more and more social commerce will be driven by influencer marketing. Brands are continuing of course to invest and to identify who can really create a lot of conversation be that nano or like micro or macro influencer. So, I think that’s another way that influencer marketing will help to continue to drive social commerce, but in a way that is going to feel, I hate the word, but really authentic to that brand. And it’s something that we see working already and has been working for years for digital first or digital native brands.

Tessa Burg: Yes, so we’ve seen content play a really important role in the success of e-commerce and selling online and driving offline sales. And so far we’ve covered that you need the data, you need to know what they’re looking for in order for that to really make an impact and be of value to the customer. Lucie, do you see content evolving? As we continue on this path of digital first omnichannel marketing and bringing in these new emerging tools for both Web 2.0 and Web3.

Lucie Repshire: Definitely, there is always a fine balance between like heaviness of assets and speed of loading mobile devices a alongside, making the best enriched experience. But most certainly like, having video assets for the near future, definitely, that’s going to become a common place across many of the different retailers. But all of the virtual reality stuff that could come in, the possibilities are endless and not to mention the digital within the store. So as more the omnichannel world, more people are looking for experiences when they do physically go into sports, it become an entertainment like it was missing for so long in our lives that once we’re there now we expect more out that situation. So emerging digital within the space of the store, digital displays, making it personalized, linking it up with the signals and what we know of you from programmatic within retail media or even search interaction, your buying behavior linked to your loyalty cards. That’s a whole other aspect as well that we haven’t touched on yet, but that those merging of those worlds linked in with maybe the entertainment factor that can come in virtual reality, bring in things to life within store is I think quite an exciting space.

Tessa Burg: And I think that the more you connect offline to online and you make it entertaining and engaging, the more opportunities you have to gather first-party data and collect more on signals. And I like that all of your answers have been around intent and signals and how people are interacting with the product as a means of informing what you do next and measuring. I think that’s a very big shift from where we were as marketers where we really did rely on third-party data to find my customer who looks like this. And now we’re seeing these behaviors here that means x and we’re putting the onus on us to develop the right experience for that behavior. We sort of like glossed over it. But that’s a really massive shift in the way that I feel like you’re already prepared for third-party data to go away. So, it really, again, back to that customer-centric, how does the customer want us to engage being respectful of their privacy and we’re looking at, “Hey, because you’re doing this, what’s the best experience for you online and offline?” Jenn, have you begun to, what has it been like from the search and social world and sort of using the more behavioral intent to help develop that right kind of content to bring that experience together.

Jenn Day: It’s a really interesting one because, or at least from my perspective, obviously it’s not just one team who’s creating the content, you’re getting your insights team involved and to get that data you are working with your brand marketers to make sure that any content that’s getting created is the right positioning, the right message, et cetera. But in terms of how we’re really leveraging that and using it, a lot of social listening is helping to drive the type of content and the style of content that we know our consumers are more interested in. even if that might be a bit of a shift in approach for what we’re used to. But having the data there is really helpful because I think it gives you the courage to try and test something new. But it is making quite a difference in terms of like the style of the assets that we’re creating and being more focused on being of course like people-centric, customer-centric, but also being channel focused. And what I mean by that specifically is, creating the right type of content for a meta property or creating the right kind of short format video for be it TikTok or be it YouTube short, but getting really more focused on we’re not just going to create one asset and chop it up to be the right dimensions, but really being more focused on what would our consumers on this channel specifically like to see. So while we are very focused on an omnichannel approach, we’re still making sure that we’re delivering the right type of content for where our audience is. It’s just also about making sure that depending on where they are in the consumer journey, we’re having the consistency in the message, but delivering them the style of content that they’d like to see wherever they are.

Tessa Burg: And Lucie, how have you seen the impact of making sure it’s right content, right experience in the right channel, drive sales, as that gets better and better? Are you seeing that down funnel generate revenue?

Lucie Repshire: Definitely. So, there was a time that Jenn was alluding to where you find the TV ad plastered everywhere just because we had the asset, “Oh we’ll use it,” it’s not the right asset, not right place, right location, right part of the journey. So, we were paying for something that wasn’t fulfilling. And the good part is, and retail media, we can measure that. So, when we know when we create something that’s based on the intent of that search term, or that place within the site or the behaviors that we know about that shopper, we all get much better conversion rates. It’s significant, the conversion rate increase that we get and that’s great to feedback to the business. Instant feedback loop. We created something right location, right content for the right people and here are results. We do more of that, we can improve like dramatically and like our return on investment will go up. But it again, like it has to be, we have to know where someone is in the journey to know exactly what type of content, what messages they want. And that also goes back to, social listening, looking at reviews, what language and what are shoppers telling us. Consumers telling us that they want to hear when they’re doing these researchers because the messy middle in particular, they’re backwards and forwards. They could look, 20, 30 plus sites between retailer brands before they may make their brand choice. So somehow we got to cut through that, we have to stop them. What’s that experience? And that’s providing them what they need, being helpful and that’s what we are trying to do. We’re not perfect no way. It’s a learning process and we’ll constantly improve.

Tessa Burg: Well thank you very much both of you for being on the podcast today. I think that we have a lot of tools to develop this discipline and being digital first in CPG and it is a discipline, this is a major shift and it requires a lot of the process changes that we’ve talked about today in upskilling. Before we get off, I was actually wondering, do you follow anyone or are there any books or trainings that you would recommend for CPG marketers to kind of help make this transition evolution or really sell it in again, like sometimes I think the marketers know that it’s really a matter of helping to bring the rest of the company along to work through that tension, to get to the point of collaboration that’s necessary to be customer-centric. Do you have any recommendations on books or blogs or that you follow that have really helped you get to where you are today?

Jenn Day: I really enjoy, Think with Google, I mean, I think they just have really nice content that gets put out regularly. Some of their trainings as well I think are short, quick if you are a CPG marketer, you’ve been in digital for a long time, it’s still good to just have a bit of a refresher there too. So yeah, Think with Google, it’s a big one for me. I love podcasts. I love them so much. I probably consume way too many podcasts, but there’s also an app called Headway, which is one of those apps that basically summarizes a long chapter book in, seven to 15 minutes. So, I’m a big fan of Headway and consume a lot of great books there. There are also some more long form article content there and essays. So yeah, I would definitely check out Headway.

Tessa Burg: Oh, that’s awesome. I’ve never heard of that, I love that.

Jenn Day: Yeah, it’s really good. I like it.

Tessa Burg: Lucie, do you have any suggestions?

Lucie Repshire: Yeah, the CPG Guys always pay attention to what’s going on there. It also, it’s really interesting, like you mentioned like the Google’s like Amazon as well. Well like their releases and the documentation obviously take them, produced by the retailer themselves. But very interesting reads when they do come out, big industry trends, E-marketer has great stats, insights, like personally, Jenn and I have used Circus Street for like small trainings, very bite sized trainings. Like the longest is half an hour and you can pick, there’s hundreds of different topics in there to fill your curiosity. And I think information is everywhere and there’s lots of tools out there that you can get keyword data from even the google keyword plan at all. Fantastic insights and Google trends, like huge things that you can find out for free just by being curious and having a look around.

Tessa Burg: Well, thank you again for being on the show. If people want to find you and reach out to continue this conversation, where can they find you, Lucie?

Lucie Repshire: So, LinkedIn, obviously I’m there. Feel free to make contact.

Tessa Burg: And Jenn.

Jenn Day: Yeah, same for me at LinkedIn’s the best place to reach me.

Tessa Burg: Well thank you very much for joining us again today. If you want to hear more episodes of Leader Generation, you can find us on LinkedIn. It is the Leader Generation podcast brought to you by Mod Op. Or visit Mod Op website at modop.com.