How AI Is Powering The Next Era Of Retail Marketing

[00:00:00] Tessa Burg: Hello and welcome to another episode of Leader Generation brought to you by Mod Op. I’m your host Tessa Burg. Today we are with John Gomez. He is the CEO of RPM Labs. We’re going to be talking about how AI is powering the next era of retail marketing. John has spent decades in the merchant experience before taking the helm at RPM Labs.

[00:00:23] Tessa Burg: So we’re very excited about this conversation. John, thanks so much for joining us today.

[00:00:29] John Gomez: Tessa, happy to be here. Thanks for hosting me.

[00:00:33] Tessa Burg: We are really excited about having RPM labs as a client. You truly are leading what’s next in retail marketing, retail media. It’s an entirely new landscape, but before we get into what’s changing, what our clients and what listeners need to know, tell us a little bit about your journey leading up to this moment.

[00:00:56] John Gomez: I’m a retailer by trade and so I’m not your traditional tech, CEO. Um, started off, actually at Kinko’s, for those of you who may remember that before we were acquired by FedEx and helped through that journey, both with Kinko’s and FedEx. And, back then that was a tech-leaning company.

[00:01:14] John Gomez: After about a dozen years there, I went off into the food business, and that ultimately led me, to Trader Joe’s, where I was Executive Vice President of Marketing and Merchandising and also Operations, um, prior to that. And, then I was recruited by KKR to go, uh, run Cardenas Markets, , which is now known as Heritage Grocers. And that was actually my first experience with retail media with one of the acquisitions that we had done as we were growing that company.

[00:01:40] John Gomez: I like to tell that story a lot because it’s, it’s been foundational about how I approach retail media in-store, especially. And, um, because I think, and to this day, it’s still being done in a way that, um, not really benefiting, um, the consumer experience.

[00:02:00] John Gomez: The sales lift for the stores or even the sales lift for the, uh, for the CPGs. That are expecting a lift with that media spend. But my first experience was, I think I walked into a store for the first time. It was a acquisition that we had done and they probably had, you know, 12, 15 TVs all throughout the store.

[00:02:21] John Gomez: Maybe 20 percent of them weren’t working. They were dark or static. You know, the other ones were working, but they were showing some kind of advertisement that wasn’t really relevant to the experience, for the store. And obviously as a, as a merchant. My first priority is let’s make sure that our customers are happy.

[00:02:42] John Gomez: And as part of that journey, we want us to make sure that we’re growing our sales. So when I saw the disconnect between the shopping experience and that’s both within the store, but also in particular part of the store and the media, not matching what we were trying to sell, it really just threw me off.

[00:03:00] John Gomez: And so I came back, I said, you know, I’m not sure I like this. I’ll come back in a month and we’ll do another tour and hopefully, you know, things can be working and hopefully the, the, the media and the content can actually match. What we’re expecting as merchants, which we spend all of our time, all the merchant’s, DNA, is all about where things go in the store, what’s being sold in the store, and of course all of the signage needs to match all of that.

[00:03:26] John Gomez: So, came back a month later and nothing really had changed and I just really took down the whole initiative. T hat to me. Um, was my first experience with retail media, obviously not a good one. And I think still to this day, there’s still problems like that out there, which I think is fundamental to why in-store retail media hasn’t taken off the way that it should.

[00:03:50] John Gomez: And, and we address that, you know, head on with our technology solution, our algorithm, what we call our intent engine. Uh, which is the only real way to do it at scale. , So that was my, my sort of long way of sort of sharing a little bit about my background, but also my entrance into retail media, which is probably a little bit unorthodox.

[00:04:12] Tessa Burg: Yeah. When you were talking about how the number one goal is to make sure customers are happy, it brought me back to my retail days, which are way less sophisticated. I worked at a music store called Camelot. And our way of like promoting and trying to get more sales was to sell blank cassettes. And so, you know, teenagers could make more mixtapes. But it was funny because people who would sell the most cassettes, or then the most blank CDs, were the ones who invested the most time in making customers happy.

[00:04:50] John Gomez: Right.

[00:04:51] Tessa Burg: you know, too pushy, um, if you were too aggressive, then it didn’t work. Like you had to meet them where they were at.

[00:04:57] Tessa Burg: And that stands true as really key to success for any in-store experience.

[00:05:04] John Gomez: Absolutely. I think there’s, there’s a merchant sensibility I like to call that sometimes gets lost when you’re selling technology. And I’ll try to use as few buzzwords as possible. I think when you’re Approaching a retailer, approaching a merchant, um, or even a CPG, um, being able to talk, um, to them through the lens of the customer.

[00:05:27] John Gomez: You know, some of them don’t even like the word consumer because it sort of depersonalizes the customer as an example. Um, although we all know sort of what, what that means, but I think, um, being able to talk to them in terms and more importantly, um, you know, view your own strategic priorities through the lens of what’s best for the customer.

[00:05:48] John Gomez: And I think that gets lost a lot, especially in the media side of things, because there is often, um, sort of not aligned incentives. Um, for somebody that’s selling media, um, to make sure that that aligns with the customer experience. Um, but ultimately, if those things are not foundationally aligned, you end up not being able to sell media.

[00:06:12] John Gomez: And I think that’s, that’s part of the core of the, of the challenge is if you just blast media out there, that’s not relevant. Um, and it’s not relevant because the tools haven’t been out there up until today. Right, because you can’t just have a basic content management system and an army of people deciding what media should be played at the store in Los Angeles where I’m sitting versus in New York versus in the morning versus at night versus with this demographic profile versus another one.

[00:06:44] John Gomez: So that’s really an algorithm-based platform. Um. That is our intent engine that delivers at scale where media should go, and we hold ourselves accountable to make sure that that media is actually delivering on results. So I do believe that customers vote with their feet. And if what you’re able to show the customer at that point in time, wherever they are in the store or even outside of the store, um, they will buy more of it, right?

[00:07:18] John Gomez: Of whatever you’re trying to advertise. If, if it’s hitting the right point in time. So, you know, probably as an example, I like to use. You know, advertising coffee at eight p.m. at night. Um, it’s probably not the best use of your time or, you know, when it’s really cold outside, um, in a particular store, hot chocolate is probably a better move than ice cream as an example for most people.

[00:07:42] John Gomez: And so how do you do that? How do you do that at scale? And you really need an automated way to do that. And, um, and the same, by the way, goes for measurement. How do you measure? If what you’re doing is actually working. Um, and so we have a great measurement tools. Um, you know, where we tied right back to the customers of the retailers POS system to be able to demonstrate what’s working and what’s not working by A/B testing, um, with testing control groups, and we hold ourselves to the highest sort of most rigorous standards of measurement.

[00:08:19] John Gomez: And I think that gives us a lot of credibility with CPGs and retailers Who are asking the tough questions of, and I think that the ultimate question when you’re implementing or considering a big initiative like in-store retail media is, you know, ultimately someone’s going to ask what’s the ROI, right?

[00:08:39] John Gomez: Why is it working? You know, whether you’re installing screens in-stores or Um, or some software platform, somebody is going to ask, you know, are we making money on this? And, uh, cause you can’t just put screens up there and you can’t just put any content out there. So if you’re a larger company and trying to do this at scale, you really do have to think through all of the different, um, puzzle pieces and make sure that you have a scalable solution.

[00:09:06] John Gomez: That’s an algorithm that works across the country, um, and that ingests a lot of data. So it’s very data intensive, um, um, you know, inputs to make sure that that customer experience is great. If the customer is happy, they’ll buy more of the product as long as what you’re showing is relevant to them at that point in time.

[00:09:26] John Gomez: And then that obviously leads to, um, a sustainable advertising effort rather than just You know, advertisers out there excited that there’s new inventory, but then you don’t get the sales left and it all just sort of collapses. So we’ve learned all of that sort of, uh, you know, the hard way and really tools to be able to solve for that, including thinking through what are some possible new solutions that we think retail media networks might want to lean into.

[00:09:54] John Gomez: And I’m sure we’ll get into the digital wallet space. Um, but we’re, we’re super excited about that as well.

[00:10:02] Tessa Burg: Yeah. I want to take a step back and really help paint a picture for the audience on what the future of this in-store experience looks like. So earlier this year, you were on the ground at NRF. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’re seeing, what you think will excite those customers shopping and overall, what, what types of big challenges, big problems is the future of in-store retail solving?

[00:10:29] John Gomez: Every booth had either an AI, logo or, or mentioned, um, uh, or, you know, and certainly retail media was also all over the place at, at, at NRF and, um, I still think there’s a lot of education that needs to happen. So if you put the buzzwords aside, you know, our algorithm is, is AI-based and you really need to be able to sit through a lot of data to get to automated content delivery. Um, but I think that there’s still a lot of education of, you know, it’s like a lot of, a lot of new technology tools is, um, just because the capability is there, the app doesn’t mean that the application is necessarily sound. And I think that’s what I saw, um, a lot at NRF is, again, a lot of buzzwords, a lot of talk about AI, a lot of talk about retail media.

[00:11:25] John Gomez: But not necessarily through the lens of the end consumer or customer, um, in the store or even outside of the store. And I think, um, in part, um, it’s because, you know, people just like to think and get excited about this new technology. It’s the new shiny object. But, um, if they don’t have the retail background or the retail experience to understand what moves the needle, um, and then I think they’re really going to struggle with that.

[00:11:54] John Gomez: So I find. That sometimes I feel like over the past few years, like I feel like a consultant and the same is true at NRF. I was very grateful to be at the Microsoft booth and spend time with them there as well as the NVIDIA booth with Supermicro. Um, and I find myself more advising, um, and asking questions of, uh, merchants and asking them, you know, what is your strategy for retail media?

[00:12:20] John Gomez: And they always think. Um, and I’ll say this now for anybody who’s listening out there, um, they always think screen first because it’s a tangible thing and, and then, or they think media first, like, boy, if I get screens and I’m going to get, you know, a bunch of media dollars in here. And that’s, that’s certainly what I thought years ago.

[00:12:41] John Gomez: And, um, of course. I would say those are, those are the two, they’re, they’re obviously important. You need to have important, if you’re going in-store, you need to have important hardware. Um, but you also, and you also need to have a media sales team, somebody selling the media. But if the content is no good, think of that in terms of anything, any other platform that we watch, whether it’s Netflix or Google or Facebook, you can have the best computer in the world, the best laptop in the world, and you can have the best media sales team selling advertising.

[00:13:12] John Gomez: But if the product stinks. You’re not going to watch it. And so that’s the missing link. And that’s where I see what we play in this ecosystem is we’re the missing link to make sure that the content is good because there’s, we partner with great screen providers out there and we partner with great retail media company, uh, sales, uh, organizations out there, but the content.

[00:13:36] John Gomez: Is really the key to move the needle on that. And so I find myself spending a lot of time educating people on, um, you know, about how what it takes to deliver that content. It’s not a bunch of people. It’s not a vanilla content management system. You need a lot of data from the merchants themselves. The CPGs certainly expect that because they want to be able to demonstrate that there’s ROI on their media spend.

[00:14:03] John Gomez: And of course, the CFO working in the retailer space wants to know is all of this investment worth it or not. So being able to measure that you’re seeing a category sales lift or being able to measure that you’re seeing actual media sales lift and demonstrating incrementality, um, around that sales lift is critical.

[00:14:23] John Gomez: And in order to do that, again, how do you do that at scale across hundreds or thousands of stores, um, and activation points? Uh, we need an algorithm in order to deliver that that can pick, uh, and customize, um, in an automated whale, uh, automated way, uh, content from several different sources. And deliver that at the right point in time and then measure it all.

[00:14:49] Tessa Burg: So yeah, that’s an interesting point because the brands that are advertising and retail media are spending billions of dollars. Some of the biggest spends and budgets come from CPG, come from big box retailers. so they’re developing a lot of content. And so how, do you help or how do you advise them to make the most of that content?

[00:15:14] Tessa Burg: And what has to happen to it to make it appropriate? For retail media. So it doesn’t come out as just, you know, an, a wrong day parts commercial. I

[00:15:26] John Gomez: Yeah, um, and yeah, there’s certainly plenty of content out there. I think obviously getting the formatting right from a delivery standpoint, but recognizing that, um, all of the different data signals that you need in order to deliver the right content at the right time. ingesting that data is critical. So again, using a simple, a simple example of understanding the demographic profile of a particular store.

[00:15:54] John Gomez: So, you know, we believe in privacy and honor privacy by design principles. So we don’t actually, um, uh, know exactly which, who shoppers are, unless a retailer shares that with us. But when we think of a store in particular, we, we profile a store and say, this is what the store is like. And we partner with the retailer to make sure that we’re capturing their sales data.

[00:16:20] John Gomez: And then from there, we can, uh, understand, um, using again our platform to understand what kind of content we should be delivering at this store, right? So one store may be more, call it natural foods driven, where maybe it’s a, uh, uh, higher income demographic and there’s a lot of organic and gluten free options there.

[00:16:43] John Gomez: And sales are high there. So you need to know that in order to, um, to know what content needs to deliver in there. So, you know, we give the retailer and the CPGs, those parameters and that understanding to say, you know, I, I want to, you know, pick a group of stores, for example, call it, um, you know, 200 stores that are called the gluten-free stores.

[00:17:05] John Gomez: So I think being able to deliver that, you know, um, and give, um, end users and retailers or CPGs, the ability to layer in their own guardrails and say, um, I want to be able to pick and choose where this media is going to be most powerful. And both retailers and merchants get a say in that because the retailer may have certain principles that, you know, here’s what we want to advertise or here’s what we don’t.

[00:17:34] John Gomez: Um, in this part of the store in a different part of the store, of course, I think CPG Is gonna be more liberal and try to get everything out there all over the place. Um, but at the end of the day, that can backfire because if they’re spending too much in areas that don’t really create a sales lift, uh, for them, and then that ultimately sort of leads to sort of, you know, uh, bad ROI Uh, on that spend so. I think, um, being able to have those tools in place, um, again, that mirror the way, um, a merchant thinks to deliver the right result, um, for the customer and the customer experience to do that at scale, I think is probably one of the most important factors.

[00:18:19] Tessa Burg: mean, that’s pretty game changing. When I worked at American Greetings, we had a massive business intelligence department that really looked at what types of. Cards sold at what types of seasons and our different formats. And it really helped inform the innovation that we put into cards, like whether it was music or a pop up card. And when I think about what you’re, uh, offering is a tool set that takes an entire business intelligence department and doesn’t require personally identifiable. Data to give marketers a very clear understanding of who’s buying what when and then so what are they likely to want to see as opposed to just, you know, basic product recommendations based on historical behaviors like only how, how can you bring that to be so accessible when I see that a lot of, um, retail companies and CPGs are, they still have all these disparate Data systems.

[00:19:25] Tessa Burg: Like, is it hard to integrate or how does, how does your tool help get the right signals to the market or to inform the content?

[00:19:33] John Gomez: Yeah, I think it’s, um, we primarily will use, um, in terms of like understanding what skews are in the store and what skews are moving in the store and also for measuring whether something is working or not. We partner with a retailer to integrate with their POS system. So that gives us a sort of very high fidelity measurement to understand, um, when you think about how to, you know, using, um, you know, uh, testing control measurement to be able to understand, you know, um, if, if we’re advertising X in, uh, in test stores, um, and being able to compare.

[00:20:12] John Gomez: Through the point of sale system, what’s moving and what’s not moving that starts to give you a good indicator of what’s working and what’s not as obviously as you compare with the control group. So I think tying into the PO system is important. I think obviously sound AB testing. is important to be able to measure incrementality.

[00:20:32] John Gomez: Um, and then, of course, so, so that integration effort is, is, is quite simple for the retailer. Um, and then all of the sales happen through that retail channel. So I think the CPGs, I think, um, that’s, I think good enough for them. It’s probably as, as, as high fidelity as you’re going to get through that, through their POS system.

[00:20:53] John Gomez: But we also use other data sources. Um, you know, including, you know, from, uh, uh, you know, weather patterns, demographic, um, patterns to be able to layer in and give CPGs those, um, sort of the ability to say, if I want to target where I get a, you know, Hispanic over 30, where, what’s the, what are the best sort of, uh, uh, store audience that we can select to do that?

[00:21:19] John Gomez: And then they use our software platform to just go through and select that. So they can use the, uh, RPM lab software. Um, to basically add a campaign, um, after the retailers sort of set their own guardrails and, uh, and they’re off to the races.

[00:21:35] Tessa Burg: That’s really powerful because then it’s more regionalized and what’s the time to delivery on these different campaigns from like the moment I’m looking at analysis and seeing, you know, what’s going to resonate with this audience to getting it into the market.

[00:21:52] John Gomez: Yeah, it’s immediate. Um, I think as long as, I think the hard part is getting everybody to agree on the principles and those guardrails. So if you’ve got a retailer that says in this, in this set of stores, here’s what I want to see, and here’s what I don’t want to see. Um, um, once those, once, Sort of that’s all set.

[00:22:11] John Gomez: I think it’s a matter of, you know, clicking and tapping, just like you’d see something populate on a monitor on your desk. Obviously, these are all, you know, connected devices, and so I can sit here now and start changing content if I wanted to. As long as the retailer, you know, as long as I have the permission.

[00:22:32] John Gomez: And as long as the, uh, the CPG has, has access, um, you know, they’re there, they can go ahead and place content. And, um, obviously we don’t like to do that, uh, during the shopping experience. Um, so I think it’s important to do those during the right times of day, but there’s no limitation in terms of, um, uh, how those, how that content can change, which of course is a, is a big benefit over something like a paper sign or a plastic sign or something.

[00:23:02] John Gomez: That’s, that’s static.

[00:23:05] Tessa Burg: So we’ve spent a lot of time on the screens, the press release. Uh, that just went out yesterday, which I don’t know when this will air, but it was February 19th. So RPM labs officially, uh, spun out of a larger tech company. And not only does the network include the AI intent engine and distribution on screens, but also digital wallets.

[00:23:28] Tessa Burg: What’s the additional value of having that digital wallet distribution point in the network?

[00:23:33] John Gomez: Yeah. Thanks for asking. I’m, I’m so excited about, about this because number one, You know, it’s the other screen, um, that everybody has and carries around with them wherever they go. So, uh, there’s, there’s not a lot, there’s no capital involved in getting into the wallet space business. And we’ve been working on this idea for quite some time.

[00:23:57] John Gomez: Um, so love that we’re, um, that we’re launching it. Um, but the, the wallet pass sort of feature in everybody’s cell phones, um, is really underutilized. I mean, we really see that as a white space that, um, is basically something like you used for basic, you know, entry tickets, you know, when you get on an airplane, uh, when you go to a concert.

[00:24:23] John Gomez: Um, but so there’s a lot of great space there. If you live in, you know, everybody will start looking through their wallet passes and start thinking about. Um, what can actually be added to that to help customers make better choices when they’re in stores? And how can retailers and CPGs use that in order to help, um, you know, promote their cause to sell more of their products in a way that’s relevant to, to, to the end consumer?

[00:24:50] John Gomez: Um, so, uh, we see this as an incredible white space. I think there’s also a lot of great synergies, um, with the wallet, uh, pass activations for retail media networks out there that are hungry for inventory. So, you know, I haven’t talked to one retail media network, uh, sales group that doesn’t want more media, doesn’t want more inventory, whether it’s in-store or wherever it is, they just want more inventory.

[00:25:17] John Gomez: The beauty of the, of the wallet passes. that inventory is already built. The CapEx is paid for, right, by the consumer. They’re carrying it around in their wallet, and they’re more and more paying using their wallet and their digital wallet, um, more and more every day. Especially younger customers, but even older customers are, are starting to use Apple Pay, starting to use their wallet passes.

[00:25:42] John Gomez: So if you think about that from the lens of somebody that’s selling retail media today. And is selling on-site in the e-commerce. Um, this is a very easy pivot that just adds inventory, um, for them to be able to activate and they don’t necessarily have to wait to go install a bunch of screens in a store.

[00:26:04] John Gomez: And so a lot of the same principles. Work, um, that work in-store, which is why this is a natural pivot for us, um, to add this to add the solution for retailers and for CPGs. And I think, um, consumers, when you do it the right way, I think we’ll appreciate it. Again, the same principles hold though. If you do it the wrong way, if you don’t have the AI intent engine that we do, and I’m not saying we’re the only ones who have this out there, but if you do it incorrectly, I think it becomes an annoyance to customers and then you start to lose adoption.

[00:26:39] John Gomez: So being able to have the right intelligent and scalable tools to be able to deliver to passes. The right media, the right campaigns, the right content, whatever it is a retailer or CPG would want to deliver. Um, I think, I think that this is a natural extension as people start to use their digital wallets more and more.

[00:27:00] John Gomez: Um, to have activation points within, within the wallet passes that can be very meaningful to customers so that they don’t have to necessarily Dig through an email to see what promotion you email promotional email you send them or go through an app, which is great. I think everybody has an app and a loyalty program, but being able to use it to go straight to the wallet feature where everybody opens and pays more and more.

[00:27:28] John Gomez: So I think is is something we’re incredibly excited about. I think will resonate with with the retail community.

[00:27:35] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I totally agree. So what does that look like though? So I know I use my wallet a lot to pay. Is this reaching out to people after they pay? Or is, are there moments where there’s an alert or notification that there could be something in their wallet before they get to the point of checkout?

[00:27:53] John Gomez: Yeah, you can certainly do either or, um, I think what, uh, how we want to use this is, um, obviously making sure that again, that the principles that the retailer wants, um, there’s an alignment, um, you know, session there that’s needed to make sure that, that we’re doing what the retailer. wants us to do. But, um, it’s very easy, for example, to, to, you know, um, to geofence and say when, when there’s a consumer within a mile of the store and they’ve got a promotional item where they’ve got, um, um, you know, uh, uh, some loyalty points.

[00:28:30] John Gomez: Um, or if they have, uh, a gift card, for example, these are all things that you can use to remind, through a pass, through a notification, um, that, uh, you know, that there’s a reason to stop into the store, or as you’re walking into the store, a notification that says, hey, remember that this is on sale today, or remember that you have, Um, uh, a gift card or that you’ve got these loyalty points, um, and have that appear in a sensible way in a, in a sort of a cohesive communication in the wallet pass, I think is a, is a really good tool so that you don’t end up with, um, you know, customers looking through multiple different channels on, on kind of what they’re looking for, you know, in the store.

[00:29:15] John Gomez: So I think it gives a, um, a very easy home base. That, um, consumers are using more and more for retailers and CPG to communicate to.

[00:29:28] Tessa Burg: What I love about The solutions that you’re describing is that it takes the burden off the customer for being rewarded. Like typically as a consumer, you have to already know when you’re going, why, what you have available, if you can or cannot spend points or coupons. And this is really about rewarding people, giving people that attention without them having to click or find or go back and log in to that. Super duper annoying. And I even remember like, again, just being a cashier and waiting for folks to try and find what it was that they wanted to redeem. And it’s, It creates a point of frustration that deters people from coming back again. It’s not that, you know, you didn’t want them to use the coupon.

[00:30:18] Tessa Burg: It’s that, that could have been a reason for them to come in today. And now that they don’t have it, they’re going to take it out of another visit. So I love that. I like taking this burden off the customer and really making those more personalized moments memorable.

[00:30:33] John Gomez: Yeah. Yeah. And certainly as you’re talking through that, the, the operator merchant in me things, thinks about sort of how long those things take in a line when you’re, when you’re in a store and what that does to the customer experience to everybody that’s in that line. And even the, the, the employee engagement of having to sift through that.

[00:30:52] John Gomez: So I think having one home base in the digital wallet. Where you can see your gift card balance. You can see your, you know, what’s on what, uh, what, you know, your loyalty points, um, you know, track your spends. I think, um, I think customers really, especially with the sort of, um, how ubiquitous apps have become.

[00:31:15] John Gomez: I don’t know about you, but I can’t keep track sometimes. I can’t, sometimes I don’t even know if I have an app or not, and I go, and I go to load it. I say, Oh, I already have it. And I think just the management of that. Um, just becomes more and more burdensome or annoying to, to customers. And as they’re in-stores, um, they start to lose track of like, you know, the apps become, while they’re important.

[00:31:40] John Gomez: I think when you’re in a pinch and you’re trying to find something, uh, I think we, you know, we’ve settled on the side of having this in a digital wallet experience. I think is much more powerful because that’s really the utility of sorts that customers can go to. They’re going to pay for, they’re going to go pay there, they’re walking into the store.

[00:32:01] John Gomez: If you can somehow activate that and get customers to really be spending time on that, I think, um, but again, it’s like everything else. If it’s noise, You lose adoption. And so be to do the properly at scale and add value. Um, I think that’s, that’s really what the key is.

[00:32:24] Tessa Burg: So when you look at this intersection of digital wallets, retail media, and AI. What transformative changes transformative, what transformative changes do you see coming in the next few years?

[00:32:40] John Gomez: Um, I, I think the transformative changes need to be more around quality than capability. Um, I think that like, as I said, I think there’s great. There’s great tools out there. Um, I think on the software side of things, that is where the innovation really needs to happen, which is why we’ve, we are completely a software company at this point.

[00:33:09] John Gomez: You know, we’ve been, we’ve worked with hardware before. I think that for us, There’s great hardware out there. There are great companies that do that, and there’s great media companies out there. But what’s really lacking, if you just go through any store or even at a home, um, what’s missing is the ability to deliver the right content, whether it’s in a wallet experience, digital wallet experience, or in, in a store environment.

[00:33:38] John Gomez: The ability to get that right is still very hit or miss out there. So to me, the innovation, uh, and the steps forward come from the software capabilities. Um, the ability to automate all of that data to deliver the right content at the right point in time. That is, I think, where the game is going. Um, because I think the game stops without that.

[00:34:05] John Gomez: I think, um, which is why we put all of our chips into, into this. Um, uh, because, um, again, like anything else, the content is what’s going to drive, um, the behavior that’s, that’s what’s going to drive the sales. And, um, um, I think that’s what moves retail media from more of an innovative realm to something that works at scale, right?

[00:34:32] John Gomez: It’s not scaling today, not because there aren’t a bunch of hardware companies out there or because there aren’t a bunch of retail media. You know, groups out there. It’s because the content delivery is what’s what’s held it back. Um, because you need that algorithm to do it at scale. Obviously, we think that ours is the key.

[00:34:51] John Gomez: Um, and, and, you know, leveraging that for the wallet experience, I think is also I think the wallet starts to become sort of less of a utility for getting into, you know, to boarding a plane or a concert and more and more as a, as an important device, um, that, uh, that customers can rely on in order to, to, you know, make their day easier, make their shopping experience easier.

[00:35:18] John Gomez: Um, so I don’t have to dig through a bunch of different, um, pieces of information, apps and emails and things like that.

[00:35:24] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I think one of the challenges I see some data-driven marketers really struggling with is letting go of being dependent on the app from a data perspective. You know, when apps first came out and were super popular, I know I was working at a payments tech company where we were developing apps for independent retailers. Everybody wanted everything to go through the app because they would get the most data. They’d be able to track who was doing what, how much they added to their cart, where were they, um, with your platform, you can still get data in a private way. It does not have to be personally identifiable. So it’s first-party data, shows intents, but takes away the burden from the customer.

[00:36:13] Tessa Burg: And I. I can see that there won’t be as many other interactions like clicks and, you know, impressions in the apps and downloads, but at the same time, those metrics really don’t matter. Like if, to your point, if people really put themselves in the seat of the customer, there is less friction the point of sale, if there is more joy, more personalized experience, when I’m in the store, the greater the engagement and really those are the metrics. matter and we sometimes talk about like you have to let go of the vanity metrics, but I like I’ve sat in presentations where there’s tons of metrics just all about the the app, you know, it’s like, but did that really do those metrics really reflect what was most valuable to the person shopping? No, they don’t.

[00:37:01] Tessa Burg: Right,

[00:37:03] John Gomez: me, um, my old seat as CEO of, uh, Hispanic grocery chain asking a chief marketing officer, like, but did it grow sales? But what was the return on this? You know, uh, what’s the ROAS? What’s the return on this investment? Is it working or is it not working? And that’s the dreaded question I think for any.

[00:37:23] John Gomez: Chief marketing officer. Um, because and not not to discount that those things are not important. Those are important KPIs, I think, in any business to understand if the tool is working or not working. But you could get trapped in that bubble of feeling like you’re having a lot of success, but still not moving the needle in terms of customer experience and sales.

[00:37:46] John Gomez: And so I think that that’s that’s always. You know, that’s always a challenge whenever there’s innovation of, you know, people lean into an app, which is great. I have nothing against apps. Um, but I think that there’s, um, you know, I do think that there’s a change in behavior there that’s coming because customers are just Bombarded with too many apps in their phones, um, but that’s always a danger and that was a danger for me in my marketing role, um, merchandising and marketing role in the past also, is you get married to a system that you invest in, you go to the CEO and you get funds for, and now you’ve got to prove and make sure that it works, um, but in my view, I think, um, And that’s great.

[00:38:31] John Gomez: It’s okay to do all of that. It’s okay. It’s okay to show that you’re, you know, what you’re doing is working. But to me, the real leaders in organizations that move the needle are the ones that always keep an eye on being able to demonstrate that this is working from a sales or from a profitability standpoint.

[00:38:49] John Gomez: And, um, otherwise, I think it’s too easy to sort of. To just say that, you know, my app is getting more clicks or I got a bunch of, you know, you live in the click and tap world and you forget about sales and profit. Um, and so ultimately being able to, um, to understand what’s working, what’s not working, what’s truly moving the needle and adjust as necessary, I think is, is really important for any marketer, merchant or operator that’s out there.

[00:39:18] John Gomez: Um, you know, you know, not to, not to fall in love too much with your tools because they’re always changing. And, um, at the end of the day, Um, you know, it’s all about, as they say, sales cures all and, uh, and it’s all about being able to deliver the bottom line and that with always keeping that customer experience in mind.

[00:39:40] John Gomez: Um, you know, I think so. I think it’s hard to argue against, um, customers when they’re in a store want relevant content. They don’t want noise. They don’t want to spray and pray. And when they’re looking on their phone, they want easily accessible information. Um, and I think they permit advertising as long as it’s relevant for that point in time in their personal shopping experience.

[00:40:06] John Gomez: So we’re all about I mean, if I can sum up what we do, we’re all about understanding intent, using lots of data and then validating that what’s, uh, what’s working and what’s not using, um, retailers POS, um, you know, to validate, um, if, if what we’re doing and what the CPG doing is working or not, um, that’s really critical.

[00:40:32] John Gomez: Because CPGs are, you know, um, executives are some of the smartest in the world and, you know, they don’t spend money on things for very long that don’t work. And so, you know, being able to deliver on the intent is critical, um, and, and measure that. So, um, that’s, that’s what we’ve chosen to go all in on both for wallet and for in-store.

[00:40:54] John Gomez: And we’ve got some great partners that are helping us do that. And, uh, so super excited about, uh, I think that’s where, that’s where, as they say, that’s where the puck is going and I think we’re there.

[00:41:05] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I agree. And I wish this was. Available when I worked as a marketer in retail marketing, I just remember speaking at panels at, um, CPG conferences about digital marketing and people asking, well, we sell in-store, how are we going to measure the return of, you know, digital media, digital marketing, email, SEO websites. Um, at the point of sale at the return and, you know, I think this fits so nicely into a full-funnel approach where the messages you’re putting out on your other large channels, you can deliver on and a really personal rate way right at the point of sale and then be able to more accurately attribute. Across the entire marketing mix. So that, that would have been great. We definitely didn’t have an answer for this back in like 2006. Yeah,

[00:42:00] John Gomez: thing as a, as a former chief marketing merchandising officer. I would have loved to get when asked the question, which always comes from the CFO or the CEO. You know, how do I know this is working? I’d love to be able to say, well, because we do AB testing and we, we had a group of stores where we don’t do this in, and a group of stores where we do do this.

[00:42:19] John Gomez: And we can see that when we do this, it’s growing by five to 10%. Like that would have been beautiful. And I think that, um, so bringing that technology into store. Into the digital wallet space, which, by the way, is they’re already on e com, right? In the e-commerce space, you could actually tell, uh, you can still debate whether, you know, somebody traded or, you know, it was going to buy something or not, you know, whether you had the advertisement there or not, um, but I think that we can really get to a good high fidelity situation in our measurement, which I think we can.

[00:42:56] John Gomez: really bolsters, um, and gives confident, uh, confidence to, um, chief marketing officers out there that, that this is a tool that they could really lean in on.

[00:43:07] Tessa Burg: I agree. Well, thank you, John, so much for joining us today for this conversation. If listeners want to reach out to you directly, where can they find you?

[00:43:16] John Gomez: Yeah. I can find me on my LinkedIn page. Uh, uh, you know, John Gomez at RPM labs. And, uh, looking forward to hearing from anybody, um, that wants to talk, love to hear from any retail media networks out there that want to quickly activate the cell phone wallet space. And, uh, of course, if anybody wants to do in-store any, uh, merchants out there, give us a call.

[00:43:38] Tessa Burg: I just think that’s game-changing for retail networks. I mean, the whole take the burden off the consumer, put it somewhere they already at eliminate the click. I can’t, I love it. Thanks again and

[00:43:50] John Gomez: Thank you. Alrighty.

[00:43:52] Tessa Burg: the launch and we will be following RPM Labs very closely. For listeners that want more Leader Generation episodes, you can find them at Mod Op. com M O D O P dot com or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Until next time, thank you. And John, we’ll be in touch again soon.

[00:44:15] John Gomez: Bye bye.