Women In Tech: Elli Dimitroulakos On Leading Innovation

[00:00:00] Tessa Burg: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Leader Generation, brought to you by Mod Op. I’m your host, Tessa Burg, and today I am joined by Elli. She’s the Head of Ad Product and Innovation at Media.net. She has been an instrumental and transformational leader throughout her career, winning numerous awards from Ad Exchanger and Ad Monster.

[00:00:23] Tessa Burg: Elli, we are so excited to have you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:00:27] Elli Dimitroulakos: Hi Tessa. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here with you.

[00:00:32] Tessa Burg: So, this episode is coming at a perfect time. Not only is it Women in Tech Day on April 4th, but I think everyone can relate to all the change that is happening right now in both the tech and marketing landscape and really across every industry. And your career has spanned many different industries. Tell us about your past and the journey to your position here at Media.net.

[00:00:57] Elli Dimitroulakos: Uh, yeah, I mean, change in my career and in life has been constant. I’ve, so, I’ve been in, in media and ad tech for over 20 years, and I’ve led bold transformative transformations across industries.

[00:01:09] Elli Dimitroulakos: It includes TV to DSPs, to broadcast, then to publishing, podcasting. And now I’m on the SSP side at Media.net revolutionizing, uh, curation and, and data-driven, uh. Uh, targeting. So, it’s been really interesting to see how the space has evolved and how quickly and that evolution has accelerated. But, um, my focus has always been on embracing change.

[00:01:31] Elli Dimitroulakos: I’m always curious, asking questions, and I really love building cultures of innovation and pushing the industry forward and, and changing or challenging the status quo.

[00:01:41] Tessa Burg: And that always sounds beautiful and sounds nice, but it comes with a lot of challenges because it really is not human nature to want to change. And people are finding them in a, in a space where they want it to be optional. They want change and evolution to be something they might do, but they’re not quite sure yet.

[00:02:05] Tessa Burg: In your past when you’ve worked, um, at different companies. How have you helped align people’s personal motivations with the company’s vision and with building something and delivering something that is true innovation?

[00:02:22] Elli Dimitroulakos: Yeah. I find that a lot of people believe that change is necessary and then they’ll bring you into impact change and, and help drive change. But it almost always goes hand in hand with resistance, even from the same individuals that understand that change is needed. Um, so there’s a constant resistance to change.

[00:02:39] Elli Dimitroulakos: I think it’s in our human nature to resist things that take us out of our comfort zone and challenge us or, or move us into areas that aren’t so, um, so easily understood at the time. Um, but that is their prerequisite of being able to really survive and remain relevant in today’s day and age, especially with, um, you know, AI driving so much innovation and, and compound increase of change across organizations.

[00:03:06] Elli Dimitroulakos: So, I’ve always been faced with skepticism and inertia, and I think what I’ve learned is to kind of come in knowing that that is a natural response and reaction to change. It’s not personal. Um, and stay remained and sort of focused and diligent on the fact that we are here to, uh, do good things that will continue to bring value to the organization, but also the individuals within it.

[00:03:30] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so, for me it’s about demonstrating, demonstrating the value of these, um. These new changes or these new technologies or a new process, for example, um, helping stakeholders understand and align on what our shared vision is, enabling them and also highlighting their contributions. And then at the end of the day, embracing. Like embracing change as a team and sort of taking a crawl, walk, run approach. Because if you do sudden change, we also don’t know what the impact would be on that. It’s not just the human element. It’s also, the professional element of that. Did this change actually have a positive impact?

[00:04:09] Elli Dimitroulakos: Or are we doing change for the sake of doing change? And so, I think by taking a data-driven walk, crawl, run approach, it gives people time to adjust and pivot when they see that value. And it also allows organizations to take in market feedback and client feedback and really understand if what we’re doing is viable and is bringing value to the market, or if we’re doing it because it’s the new buzzword and the popular thing that everyone is talking about.

[00:04:34] Tessa Burg: I love that answer. It’s rich with so many good steps for anyone who is facing resistance. When you talk about demonstrating value, can you give us a couple of examples of what that might look like or what you’ve done at different companies you’ve led?

[00:04:50] Elli Dimitroulakos: Right. Yes. I think value can be, uh, different for different people. Depends on who you’re talking to. But when I work across, across different partners or stakeholders within an organization, that will bring in varying degrees of expertise. And levels of understanding of certain initiatives. And so, for example, when you’re speaking to the board of directors or someone in the C-suite, they usually like to see some sort of output, uh, from a revenue perspective or an enhancement and operational or monetary enhancement or really an increase in market share.

[00:05:21] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so. You talk data from that perspective to them, but it’s also critical for them to understand that there are areas of improvement for cross channel collaboration with team members. Because when your team is in flow and they love what they’re doing, and they feel like they are part of a bigger thing and not just outputting tasks or, product features, it creates an environment of collaboration and passion.

[00:05:45] Elli Dimitroulakos: And that then has a really important and compounding positive effect on culture collaboration and people just liking what they do and who they’re doing it with. And so, from that perspective, I might take a data-driven approach, but then also highlight the human element of the effects within the organization of driving change, but also keeping everyone aligned.

[00:06:06] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, when you’re speaking to other stakeholders within the organization that may not have such a 10,000 foot view, it’s about what the value their contributions are bringing, and it’s a constant flow of feedback. So, what expertise do they have and how is that going to enhance, or what ideas do they have on being able to, um, improve upon something?

[00:06:26] Elli Dimitroulakos: But most importantly, what does the market want? I think a lot of people who work in data or product or even marketing teams sometimes, they’re, they can be in a silo or maybe think myopically in terms of what their individual contributions are. But we, if, when we look at the data from the market and the feedback from the market holistically as a whole and as a, as a unified group, we can really come up with inspirational ideas and brainstorming that maybe go outside of each individual’s day to day. And so, encouraging broad thinking, um, is really where I, I sort of focus, uh, when it comes to the, the stakeholders that maybe aren’t looking at things from a 10,000 degree level.

[00:07:09] Tessa Burg: You hit on something that I think even the most senior leaders miss, and that is. Whoever is designated to leads change within the organization is dedicated to that change. And that means communicating differently to different groups. It means getting people comfortable with being uncomfortable and your last point, pulling them out of the day to day. I see a lot of change initiatives fall flat because there’s a belief. As long as we all agree on the process and align on the steps, then that’s it. Then we just got to roll it out. And so maybe it’s 50% of someone’s day, or maybe it’s 25% of someone’s day. But when you’re talking about real innovation and real change, that’s going to make a measurable impact, it’s a heavier lift and you have to change the message. You have to change how people connect with you, depending on the audience and depending on their expertise. I love that you highlighted the benefits.

[00:08:13] Elli Dimitroulakos: Right.

[00:08:14] Tessa Burg: They have buy-in, then they’re a part of it. And I have seen so many times, mandates don’t work. You can’t have a singular message, a singular demo of value and be like, well, if you don’t understand this, then.

[00:08:29] Elli Dimitroulakos: Right. You know, I, I think we hear this a lot. Like Steve Jobs used to say this, and it’s a quote, people often refer to, like, I hire smart people to do smart things. Everyone in an organization has ideas and everyone has, uh, inspiration and, and everyone has expertise.

[00:08:45] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so, I believe that if you are sort of forcing a process and the process isn’t working or worse, it is working, but it’s falling short and missing opportunity to enhance outputs because we are, um, not allowing people to spread their wings or really think outside the box. And, and I think that is shortsighted and a process is meant to be directional.

[00:09:08] Elli Dimitroulakos: It, it only works as much, uh, as long as it brings people together and it allows them to do what they do so they know when the outputs are expected or when they know certain things are launching. But at the same time, if you box in thinking or ideas or capabilities, I just think that is, um. Just, it’s just a shame you’re missing out on, tapping into your most valuable resource, which is the, the people in the organization that are doing the work and are out in the market and, and understand those two concepts like the,, the technology and what we’re building and also what the market’s appetite is and where it’s headed.

[00:09:45] Elli Dimitroulakos: And you never know where that, that idea might come from. And it’s usually not from the loudest people in the room. And so, if you’re leading a product or a, a product launch or an a launch of a market strategy, um, these ideas may come from the most junior people in the organization, just from them being in that life stage and accessing that technology and utilizing it in their day to day, which may not relate at all to what they’re doing from a professional standpoint. And that’s why I always emphasize not only, um, diversity of collaboration, but diversity of workforces because different ideas come from different people depending on their life experiences. And so encouraging that in the process would be effective versus forcing a process and hoping, not hoping, but forcing a process and thinking that this process will just go smooth and processes are never smooth, especially when you have multiple stakeholders and varying degrees of initiatives running in parallel, the process is directional and it should, you know, be a live working process that that develops and, and merges as, as things move.

[00:10:52] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so, uh, it, it, you know, I, the processes for me is just a blueprint. It’s the people within the process that dictate what that should be and each initiative might come up with a different to sort of process.

[00:11:05] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I love that. And something that we’ve been working on is creating different types of spaces to get more passive feedback and to get people who maybe feel too busy, too overwhelmed, or like you said, they just don’t want to be a voice in the room, like they have ideas, but that being a voice. Communicating during all company meeting where sometimes, you know, I’ve seen senior, like who has an idea? Well, the person who raises their hand might have, might be confident, but it doesn’t, it’s not reflective of the quality of the content.

[00:11:39] Tessa Burg: What kind of tools have you used to get more people involved and organize the ideas?

[00:11:45] Elli Dimitroulakos: Right.

[00:11:45] Tessa Burg: Then you have the other side where sometimes it’s just like a stinking flood of ideas coming in.

[00:11:50] Elli Dimitroulakos: That’s exactly it. And I love this question because it taps into the vulnerable side of me where I am naturally, most people would say I’m an extrovert, but really I’m an introvert.

[00:11:59] Elli Dimitroulakos: And, um, even though I’m not afraid to voice an opinion or stand up in a room, it’s not really where I thrive. Um, you know, I, I, it’s not my comfort zone. And I realized early on that I needed to find a different channel to voice my ideas, because then my ideas would show up somewhere else. Or maybe I’ve shared them in a private conversation and then someone would take that idea and run with it and I’m like, this keeps happening because you are not voicing your, your ideas in the right channels, and then it’s, it’s not flowing to the right stakeholders.

[00:12:28] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so. I definitely am empathetic to people that may have this a similar experience or maybe a similar sort of nature. And so for me it’s about creating a combination of joint meetings and collaborations where the bolder people or the bolder ideas can be shared and whiteboarded and we can, you know, have a passionate debate within an open forum.

[00:12:49] Elli Dimitroulakos: But then there’s also like more private and, and more intimate channels that I use, and that could be anything from like a individual form fill out. And so if, if we do have a group meeting and there’s someone that was inspired or had an idea and they want to share it, it can be done anonymously through a form or they can submit their email and submit that idea through that form.

[00:13:09] Elli Dimitroulakos: And that goes to our funnel alongside all the other ideas. There’s also, um. One-on-ones. I’m a huge advocate for connecting with people on a human level that are part of the process and doing constant check-ins, especially if they have expressed that they don’t maybe necessarily feel comfortable being so public with their opinions.

[00:13:28] Elli Dimitroulakos: And then I help guide them in ways to advocate for their ideas, either through a presentation or getting them in touch with the right people to advocate for that and, and get buy-in. And so that requires mentorship and guidance, which I love to do because I feel like if I had. Asked for that kind of help early on in my career, it would’ve really, um, enabled me to like, and, you know, spread my wings faster and overcome my fears faster.

[00:13:54] Elli Dimitroulakos: And I think it would’ve helped excel my career much faster. And so I hope to do that, um, for anyone I work with, just despite the level of experience they have or where they are in an organization to find ways to share their voice, even if it’s not vocally in a, in a public forum.

[00:14:09] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, but yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if that helps answer your question, but I think it’s an important one because people tend to be really shy and introverted on ideas when you’re in rooms with really smart PhD level tech people and you’re like, this might be a, you know, a silly idea or, or one that people will laugh at.

[00:14:25] Elli Dimitroulakos: And in my opinion, there is no such thing. A lot of the things we’re building today have never been done before. And I think bold thinking and bold ideation is what, um, is behind all these unicorns and companies you’re seeing now. And, uh, the, you know, the bolder, uh, and the, the bolder you are and the higher the risks you’re willing to take, um, moving outside your comfort zone.

[00:14:47] Elli Dimitroulakos: I think the higher the reward. And I, and embracing that and helping people understand that and, and leaning more towards that thinking, um, will have tremendous impact on, on the health, the mental health of our, our, of the people within an organization, but also the, the functioning of the companies and, and the organizations.

[00:15:08] Tessa Burg: This emphasizes the point that leading change is definitely a hard job, not easy. It takes a lot of personalizing, communication streams. It takes a lot of communication in general.

[00:15:20] Elli Dimitroulakos: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:20] Tessa Burg: So you also mentioned that sometimes we get stuck a little too internally and it’s kind of easy to see why, like if you go down a rabbit hole of prioritizing different ideas and really exploring what it takes to launch those. ’cause we’re talking about technology, so there’s no idea where it’s like, oh, that’ll be easy and simple.

[00:15:40] Elli Dimitroulakos: Right.

[00:15:40] Tessa Burg: Everything is going to take multi-layers. Collaborating with multiple departments. What tools are using, or when do you bring it back to, Hey, let’s vet this and check it against the market?

[00:15:50] Tessa Burg: Because I, I do see right now in AI, or really excited about all the shiny objects and they start using them for themselves and they’re like, well, I really love this. Look at all the things I can do. Look at the things that we can now build. Where in that process are you making sure, like, we’re excited, we got momentum, we got buy-in, let’s make sure this is going to bring value to our clients and customers.

[00:16:13] Elli Dimitroulakos: Yeah, it’s, so, I, I use AI daily and I think it’s sort of, at this point I’m attached to it and I don’t move without it. And, and most of it is being used to automate, um, tasks and then connect disparate data. And so data is market feedback. It could be, you know, when we have a sales team out in market, um, pitching a proof of concept or first.

[00:16:37] Elli Dimitroulakos: You know, first to market execution or a beta. Um, there are questions we need answered and, and expectations we need to be, that need to be set. And so being able to have that output go out and then come in, in an organized fashion gives us a leverage in moving more faster, but also taking a data-driven approach and what the market appetite is or what the expectations are.

[00:16:58] Elli Dimitroulakos: So I use a lot of like, um, different type of AI for that. And it, it, it incorporates our CRM tool, it incorporates various Slack channels and, and different type of LLMs that can kind of create cohesion around this. And then create reporting that we usually put within our centralized product management tool.

[00:17:16] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, so that creates visibility. And so once that data is all collected and cleaned up a little, it creates cohesion on the messaging. So whoever’s reading it, just regardless of where you are in the organization, it makes sense. So it removes jargon. It removes like not easily understandable acronyms.

[00:17:34] Elli Dimitroulakos: It removes like, and it makes it more generalized so that people can understand it and align, and that creates inspiration across teams, whether it be from a product and engineer that are thinking about new product features or iterations of a, a feature. Or marketing in terms of like the design elements, the tone and sentiment of certain, you know, uh, marketing decks or materials that are going to go to market.

[00:17:56] Elli Dimitroulakos: And then that also informs sales. Like what, what do we, you know, is this product and feature? What is the problem and the solution? Are we, you know, solving for that? Especially, is that a problem that the market does need to be solved? But then. Are we doing it? Are we expressing that in a way that is easily digestible and, and sort of aligns with the way, uh, our clients would prefer to activate this?

[00:18:20] Elli Dimitroulakos: So that’s one way I’m using automation. Another way is operational efficiencies. I mean, the whole premise of programmatic was to automate all the menial like tasks of setting up and executing mark, um, media campaigns and those things that, uh, require a lot of like, detail and time. Um, we can automate them in a market strategy or a product launch so that the team has, uh, more time to think strategically and big picture.

[00:18:51] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so I use a lot of like Zapier type of plugins I use. Um. Different type of AI for deck creations because we need a lot of decks in our process and a lot of forms and a lot of templates. And so creating cohesion in that and, and quickly iterating those because you could create a training deck for one feature and then you launch it out and there’s a proof of concept phase and it comes back three days later and it’s a completely different product.

[00:19:19] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so time is a challenge sometimes, like being able to connect. With those teams across different global markets and then iterating that information quickly is challenging. AI has helped us turn, um, those concepts and ideas and that feedback into digestible documentation and decks that can easily be centralized and also disseminated throughout the organization.

[00:19:40] Elli Dimitroulakos: And then we use a lot of, uh, AI for like AB testing and personalizing the experiences for our clients, whether it’s, uh, you know, our marketing sales approach or, um, you know, defining who our target audiences are, um, or the features and like the value proposition to the market. All of that kind of comes in within a centralized, uh, product management toolkit.

[00:20:02] Elli Dimitroulakos: And I think there’s more, I, I’m probably missing a few. I think that’s, that’s the gist of it though. But I think AI is, I don’t even think of AI as something new. It’s been something that we’ve used for like bidding strategies and programmatic, and even machine learning. It’s been around a really long time, but now it’s become much more mainstream and it’s no longer just like a tech on the backend.

[00:20:23] Elli Dimitroulakos: It’s part of our day-to-day lives, and so. I check in with, uh, with AI chat, JBT all the time on ideas and inspiration, or if someone uses a terminology at a panel, I hear or talks about an idea and a concept, I can easily do market research, um, using ChatGPT and Perplexity, uh, to sort of understand the global scope of that concept and, and bring it back to the teams for ideation and brainstorming.

[00:20:48] Elli Dimitroulakos: So it’s just expanded our mindset. I think personally expanded our mindset and incorporates automations in your day-to-day life and, and job so that you can be more strategic and, and, and help streamline process and col cross channel collaboration. So it’s, it’s been incredible, I think.

[00:21:05] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I agree. And what I loved about the examples you gave is there’s a lot of humans in that process and I think.

[00:21:13] Tessa Burg: Some companies are finding that they’re using apps in silos, so maybe they’re just using ChatGPT, or maybe they just rolled out copilot, and so now they’re saying, you know, oh, we rolled out AI across the company. But in your examples, you are showing that it is. You’re democratizing participation in the innovation process by connecting tools, platforms, and data together, which that’s an engineered solution that then leverages AI, not

[00:21:43] Elli Dimitroulakos: That’s right.

[00:21:44] Tessa Burg: You know, we just use this one AI app to do these things.

[00:21:48] Elli Dimitroulakos: Right.

[00:21:48] Tessa Burg: And there’s, um, I think until people start really playing with the tools or trying to even build their own GPTs, you, you have to get to that point in your own adoption and maturity where you’re like.

[00:22:01] Tessa Burg: If I connected to this data source, if I also use the CRM data, if I also take the results from the campaign that ran where we did, we have all the results now from all this AB testing we did, we’re going to be able to get even more insights about our audience and where they’re at and continue to make those feedback loops richer.

[00:22:20] Elli Dimitroulakos: Right. You know, I, I, I hear a lot about the fear aspect of AI and, and while there are aspects of any kind of technology that is intelligent that go into Orwellian thinking, but I don’t want to focus on that because I remember when I was younger in my career and programmatics started to surface, and even things like SEO/SEM.

[00:22:45] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, and it started to really, um, challenge the way media was bought at the time. And, you know, TV was, was recorded and, and it was like based, performance was based on, and measured based on GRPs, which is basically like manual like journaling from individuals that were randomly chosen from a certain zip code.

[00:23:07] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, statistically that never made sense to me, and I’m not even a mathematician. But, um, when SEO and SEM came to the surface, we were actually able to measure, I. Um, measure the activity on your website or even in store through an exposure to an ad or a, a keyword, uh, search campaign. And so that level of accountability for me was always enticing.

[00:23:30] Elli Dimitroulakos: And I think that’s why I always felt like I was drawn to programmatic because it gave us the ability to. Hold our media budgets accountable to performance. And I always felt like, well, if I’m doing something as an advertiser, if I’m investing, I really want to know if this is working. You know, is it enhancing the experience for my consumer or is it disruptive?

[00:23:53] Elli Dimitroulakos: Or is this a product people want? And so that mindset allowed me to embrace, uh, ai. Um, and, but I struggled with it a lot. Like sometimes you think, is this going to. Create redundancy in, in the work or the skillset I possess, or, you know, where is this headed, um, in the future. But I think we all, I think if we take a fear-based approach in decisioning, we would never evolve.

[00:24:19] Elli Dimitroulakos: Like if we, if we think about that, like, I guess someone in the past might have looked at the idea of an airplane and thought, that is crazy. Um, it’s dangerous. Why would you ever want to do that? And now it’s. Part of our daily lives, and it’s just part of evolution. So I think with every technological evolution that we’ve seen, and especially in media, uh, it just allows the people to level up faster and access more information and make more strategic decisions that bring value back to the whole industry.

[00:24:52] Elli Dimitroulakos: And. It may remove some of the day-to-day tasks that you’re currently working on, which we may consider our individual skillset, but it enhances others that you may have never been able to tap into or even didn’t exist because the technology wasn’t there prior to that. And so I think the earlier we embrace this technology, the faster we can understand and tap into.

[00:25:17] Elli Dimitroulakos: Other aspects of our passion and our capabilities that were never available to us previously. And do I think there should be regulation around this? Do I think that in many aspects of AI across, not just media, but in general, ai, do I think there could be dangers in its utility? Like yes, we see that in media today.

[00:25:37] Elli Dimitroulakos: You know, there’s. AI technology is creating videos and, and voiceovers. Um, and it, it’s fake and it’s not accurate, and it’s, it’s not reflective of where we want to be as an industry. So I definitely think there’s regulation that needs to happen there, but I don’t see it as a threat to the element of, of, of.

[00:25:56] Elli Dimitroulakos: Of the, the human element behind, uh, the utility of ai. I just think it’s going to elevate us all and give us more access to more information, and we just become better as a collective community and I, and even taking it further than media, like the access we have today to like understanding. Um, medical practices and, and, uh, hu like health and the access to other people who are dealing with the same things that AI is helping bring forth.

[00:26:23] Elli Dimitroulakos: Just we’re, I think we’re becoming better. I just think we’re also becoming different and it brings us back to what actually got us here in the beginning of this conversation. It’s change and change. You know, change is, is hard. Change requires. In order for something new to happen, something old must first go away.

[00:26:40] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so that transition period isn’t always easy for everyone.

[00:26:46] Tessa Burg: Yeah, I, I mean, I agree with everything that you’re saying. I feel like I keep saying that, but uh, now I also have the song Level Up stuck in my head from Sierra.

[00:26:55] Elli Dimitroulakos: I love that.

[00:26:58] Tessa Burg: Well, and I. I think that what you hit on in summary is there are always going to be challenges and problems in the world, but when we think about innovation and what it means to solve those with innovation, we have to be comfortable with not immediately having the skills and the answer.

[00:27:21] Tessa Burg: Sure. Like if you are willing to look at that problem and say, I might have to try to solve this differently. I might have to try this tool over here. I might have to collaborate with different people. And that’s where really strong change leaders like yourself are so important because that’s really hard to do at large companies and at scale.

[00:27:44] Tessa Burg: And you know, you have had an entire career of success in that area. Um. One example, which I just think is kind of mind blowing. You helped acas grow by 200% in one year, and again, this is in podcasting. At the time that was new. That was an innovation. Like what were some of the keys to success to get that type of growth in such a tight timeframe.

[00:28:11] Elli Dimitroulakos: That. Yeah, I mean, podcasting was fun. I, I really loved the, the premise behind podcasting, which is like everybody who had a microphone had a voice and everybody can monetize that voice and create their own brand. So there was a, a, it was a passion project on top of the professional, um, aspect of it as well.

[00:28:28] Elli Dimitroulakos: But when I arrived at Acast, the whole, the whole purpose of that was to bring pro programmatic activation to podcasting. But when I first arrived there, I realized very early on that we really needed, we, the, the good thing about it was Acast did have a first, a first mover advantage. And so they, they created a very, you know, lucrative model that worked internationally.

[00:28:50] Elli Dimitroulakos: And bringing it to the United States was very natural in its evolution. So. You know, programmatic was already being activated across other markets, but when you came to the US it was a completely different market condition. And so we realized early on that this wasn’t about, uh, offering an activation capability.

[00:29:07] Elli Dimitroulakos: It was about changing the hearts and minds of how me podcasting media was entirely thought of and bought in this market. And so, you know. For example, podcasting was thought of as an influencer mechanism and not necessarily a scale and reach play. And so we had to tr, you know, go into every agency and brand and talk about that in and of itself was a challenge, um, because they, you know, shifting budgets from influencer to digital.

[00:29:35] Elli Dimitroulakos: To then programmatic it, it, you know that you’re talking about multiple stakeholders across multiple departments in an agency that probably aren’t even communicating with one another. And that also comes with the challenge of defining what those standards and best practices and KPIs are for each of those teams.

[00:29:53] Elli Dimitroulakos: And then changing hearts and minds around like. Do we buy a sponsorship, which is a long form conversation with a podcaster versus the 30-second prerecorded ads. Like, is that powerful? It’s never been done before. That way. What are, you know, I don’t really know if this is something I want to invest in because it’s a complete mindset change.

[00:30:10] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, and so we use a lot of data to create storytelling around that and show the proof in the pudding. I, I’m always talking about that, like, if it works for this, you know, particular segment or this particular subset of clients, can we scale that out to others? And once they see. You know, there are some risks of shifting from sponsorship buying to prerecorded ad buying, but they did see that the, the, the rewards were much higher.

[00:30:36] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, but, uh, while you’re doing that, you, you know, in order for that to be, uh, adapted, widely adapted, and then to become the norm, it’s not just about. Collecting the data. There’s actual work that goes behind that, like hard work, like working with organizations like the IAB to standardize it and create safety guardrails and, and align with, um, advertiser expectations and demands around brand safety.

[00:31:02] Elli Dimitroulakos: None of that was being done, uh, yet in podcasting ’cause it was always an intimate one-to-one exchange between the advertiser and the, and the podcaster. So it was a, it was a fun time, but I think one of the, the biggest lessons I’ve learned there is, um, you know, time takes change, takes time, and it also requires partnerships.

[00:31:24] Elli Dimitroulakos: And you cannot do this alone. Like you can have a great idea, but you need advocacy across the industry to be able to exchange ideas, but also like bring forth change. And, uh, once you have that advocacy and that support from collab collaborators, you also have to find partners, people who are willing to take these risks with you and invest in them and test these notions and ideas out.

[00:31:46] Elli Dimitroulakos: And at the center of all of this, especially because when we were launching all of this at Acast, it was during the pandemic, um, at a time. Podcasting growth. The podcasting listenership was skyrocketing, but investors. Were very, um, were very, uh, you know, conservative with the investments they were making, and they were very, very like risk adverse at the time.

[00:32:13] Elli Dimitroulakos: They really wanted to invest in media that they knew was tried and tested and safe and, uh, everything we were suggesting was. New and not risky, I guess, in my mind, but to them it was risky. And so you, you, timing is important in, in, in, in collaboration and partnership, uh, and patience in, in being able to sustain this, uh, idea and the investment that goes into this innovation.

[00:32:36] Elli Dimitroulakos: Along the, the whole like change in the socioeconomic ecosystem and the mindset of, of advertisers and brands at a time when the economy wasn’t exactly, um. I would call consistent. So, yeah, uh, it was a lot of fun, but it’s definitely not for the faint of heart, which is why I say what, you know. Uh.

[00:32:57] Elli Dimitroulakos: Embracing change and, and actually like chasing cha, not chasing it, but like not being afraid to go with it, but also being comfortable in ambiguity, I think are the two qualities I see. Um, amongst those that have excelled their careers and their passion within programmatic, because I don’t think I’ve ever been in programmatic in any like y one year where I can say, wow.

[00:33:24] Elli Dimitroulakos: Nothing really is going on this year, you know?

[00:33:26] Tessa Burg: Right. Yeah.

[00:33:26] Elli Dimitroulakos: Things are status quo. They’re, they’re exactly like they were. No, like, every year there’s something new, whether it’s privacy and regulations or measurement and challenges in brand safety and new MFA, uh, you know, threats coming up, like it’s something all the time.

[00:33:41] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so I think being comfortable with a bit of the chaos and ambiguity will allow you to thrive, um, and look at that as a, as an advantage and, and not something, uh, scary, uh, that, that you can’t control.

[00:33:54] Tessa Burg: So Elli, we’re, we’re at time, but before we leave, speaking of something new, you are at Media.net.. What are you most excited about in this next year, um, at this new company for you?

[00:34:07] Tessa Burg: You’ve been there four months.

[00:34:09] Elli Dimitroulakos: Yes, I am so excited to be at Media.net because they are what I would call the OGs of Ad Tech. They launched, uh, the first header bidding solution for publishers and, and they’re built on their mission to help publishers monetize more of their websites and sustain an open and democratic, uh, uh, open exchange and open ecosystem in media.

[00:34:30] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so. That that purpose and that mission to me is very, very personal. It, it kind of ebbs and flows with what we talked about earlier with the podcasters, like giving everyone the ability to have access to journalism and, and news and access to information. Um, but what, what I’m most excited about is they’re taking that to the next level and they’re pretty much what we’re doing is minimizing the hoops between the publisher and, and the advertiser.

[00:34:55] Elli Dimitroulakos: And so, um, even though that requires some change and consolidation within the space. For the first time, I think in a, in a, in in podcasting, we’re getting to a place where there’s data currency across both sides of the ecosystem. Advertisers have their data and we as an SSP, who has been running a performance marketplace for a search intent performance marketplace for over 15 years has all of this super valuable search intent data.

[00:35:19] Elli Dimitroulakos: So we know what consumers are looking for, we know what their intentions are, and we help bridge the gap between, uh, the user’s search intent and the advertisers, um, the advertisers data and, and what their consumers are looking for in the market. And so that means not only do media dollars get invested, you know, that means that advertisers are driving more efficiencies and effectiveness in their media campaigns, but also the publishers are monetizing more effectively and are making more money and sustain.

[00:35:48] Elli Dimitroulakos: Gaining an open exchange. And so super excited to see that we are bridging the gap between these two sides of the ecosystem to help bring forth effectiveness and efficiency in our messaging and what we’re, we’re, uh, the information and the, and the products we’re, we’re bringing to, to, to the market and, and just enabling more fair transactions and transparency within the, the value exchange of programmatic.

[00:36:14] Elli Dimitroulakos: Um, so I’m, I’m really excited to, to be part of this mission at Media Donna, and to be part of a team of such intelligent and thoughtful humans that are doing good work and have remained steadfast in their mission to sustain an open and fair, uh, ecosystem. So I’m, I’m humbled to be part of that group, so really excited.

[00:36:37] Tessa Burg: Uh, that is amazing. And I love that solution because it’s something that, I mean, even consumers want more personalized. Targeting when it, when it matters. So I, I love that your career has been in this determination and your resilience to no matter what, keep pushing innovation forward for good.

[00:36:59] Tessa Burg: And when you share that with others, it makes it so fulfilling. So thank you so much for being a guest today and sharing your insights and your learnings and on April 4th, Women in Tech Day. Um, it’s been great to have you and we’re excited to follow your journey at Media.net.

[00:37:15] Elli Dimitroulakos: Thank you so much, Tessa, for having me and keep doing what you’re doing.

[00:37:18] Elli Dimitroulakos: We need you and, and everyone who’s here advocating for innovation and change.

[00:37:23] Tessa Burg: Thank you, and for all the listeners who want to hear more episodes of Leader Generation, you can find them at modop.com. That’s M-O-D-O-P.com or search Leader Generation on any of the platforms that you listen to, podcasts. Until next time, Elli, we will talk to you later.

[00:37:40] Elli Dimitroulakos: Thank you.